The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  SarahJanet on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:16 pm

I quite liked Mockingjay too, and I thought the whole Peeta storyline was really effective.

So I've been reading reviews and discussions of the movie, but it led to a book question for all of you: someone said they thought the Mockingjay pin was less effective in the movie, because it was more powerful for the symbol of the rebellion to have already been in the mayor's house. As in, the Mockingjay was the symbol before Katniss ever saw it, and she just took up the already existing symbol of the rebellion. I read it that she started that as a symbol, but now I'm second guessing myself. Was the rebellion already starting long before Katniss was anywhere near the arena?

SarahJanet

Posts : 86
Join date : 2011-10-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  bbridges on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:34 pm

I always assumed there was a least a small resistance movement (I mean District 13 existed and someone had figured out about the video footage being the same) but Katniss was the spark. The mockingjay was a symbol during the first rebellion, as the offspring of one of the Capital's muttations and nature it showed that the Capitol couldn't control everything.
avatar
bbridges

Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Kookla on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:09 pm

someone said they thought the Mockingjay pin was less effective in the movie, because it was more powerful for the symbol of the rebellion to have already been in the mayor's house.
Hmmm... I never thought of it this way. It's an interesting idea, and I can see maybe where Collins initially thought she could go somewhere with this, but I feel like it ends up being totally moot that it's Madge that gives her the pin at all since her roll is reduced to essentially nothing in the books. Which is why when they changed it for the movie I was like, "oh, this makes so much more sense." However, I do assume they will get into the actual meaning behind what a Mockingjay actually is in the next movies (since that explanation does show the capital doesn't have control over everything).

Thinking a bit about the character of Gale in these books. I had read somewhere that Collins never intended there to be a love triangle at all, that it was her editor that forced her hand a bit in that manner. I do wonder if Gale's character was a bit of a casualty of that. I've always gotten the sense that Collins never even liked him that much, or that she deliberately wrote him unlikeable (especially in Mockingjay) so that we had a defacto love triangle that ended up being kind of a no-brainer. I don't know. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit here, but I feel like when I was reading I would think, "Wow, this guy is a dick, but in the sense that I can feel him being written as a dick."

Kookla

Posts : 160
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  particle_person on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:25 pm

Heh, yeah, that is exactly how I felt, although I thought that he wasn't meant to JUST be a dick, so much as a guy with a deep rage at the way everyone has always been treated, which comes out as cruelty. One of the big themes of the trilogy was how violence results in more violence until everyone is dead, but that it's on a continuum. There's a scene in the second book where Katniss and Finnick discuss how nearly all of them have a bit of that nastiness in them with the exception of Peeta. I interpreted Gale as a sort of intermediate — he's more cruel than Katniss, but Katniss is meaner than Prue. On the other side of the spectrum, that Peacekeeper who whipped Gale is probably worse than he is, and President Snow is nastier still. In each case it's a function of both their intrinsic personality and also what's been done to them.

That's still kind of a one-dimensional analysis though, because the books also argue that there are other kinds of evil, like Plutarch's urge for ever-nastier weaponry, or Beetee's impersonal, calculated, don't-think-about-the-PEOPLE-at-all deathtraps. (Although I thought it was interesting that he put a "stand down" option in the special bow and arrows he designed Katness.)


Last edited by particle_person on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
"Good news, Katniss, I think we've almost got him convinced you're not a mutt!" — Plutarch, attempting to cheer Katniss up about Peeta's condition.
avatar
particle_person
Tech Support

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Corellderaan on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:29 pm

Before I read the books, one of my friends was complaining that she hated book 3 because she was Team Gale and didn't like that Katniss ended up with Peeta. So when I was reading them, I couldn't understand how she ever thought Gale was even a factor. I thought it fairly blatant that Katniss was going to end up with Peeta.

Corellderaan

Posts : 45
Join date : 2011-10-26
Age : 36
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Cynara on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:35 pm

True confession from an (allegedly) grown woman reading books about fictional teenagers: before I read the last two, I flipped to the end of Mockingjay to make sure the names Katniss and Peeta were both there. I didn't even read the page--once I knew they were both alive (and presumably together) I was like "ok let's do this shit." I would have been SO PISSED.

Cynara

Posts : 421
Join date : 2011-10-23

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  particle_person on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:38 pm

Corellderaan wrote:one of my friends was complaining that she hated book 3 because she was Team Gale and didn't like that Katniss ended up with Peeta
I'm going to just pause for a moment while I recover from the idea that for some people the so-called love triangle was the most important part of the books. (I assume your friend is an adult. I'd give a pass to teens for that kind of thinking, because they tend to take a myopic view of pretty much everything anyhow.)

ETA: I'd have been pretty annoyed if they'd killed Peeta, Cy. Also, I skipped ahead to check too.

_________________
"Good news, Katniss, I think we've almost got him convinced you're not a mutt!" — Plutarch, attempting to cheer Katniss up about Peeta's condition.
avatar
particle_person
Tech Support

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Rhilin on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:57 pm

SarahJanet wrote:I quite liked Mockingjay too, and I thought the whole Peeta storyline was really effective.

So I've been reading reviews and discussions of the movie, but it led to a book question for all of you: someone said they thought the Mockingjay pin was less effective in the movie, because it was more powerful for the symbol of the rebellion to have already been in the mayor's house. As in, the Mockingjay was the symbol before Katniss ever saw it, and she just took up the already existing symbol of the rebellion. I read it that she started that as a symbol, but now I'm second guessing myself. Was the rebellion already starting long before Katniss was anywhere near the arena?

I mentioned in the movie thread that I felt they downplayed the significance of the Mockingjay in the movie, but I mostly meant that Mockingjay's were already considered an embarrassment to the Capitol, an experiment that not only went wrong but got completely out of their control. Katniss wearing that pin, because of the history of the Mockingjay, is an extra "fuck you" on top of outwitting the Gamemasters, and foreshadowing of her possible fate in Snow's eyes. It doesn't particularly matter where it comes from, and I don't believe there's any outside rebellion, but I did feel that wearing the pin had an extra level of subversiveness that moviegoers might not have picked up on.

(That said, I don't feel that there would have been any good place to put the explanation of what a Mockinjay is, either. The people doing play by plays of the games sure as hell wouldn't have brought it up, and it would have been really clunky for Katniss to explain what they were to Prim. I do sort of hope they can put in a history of the bird when they make it Kantiss' "official" symbol in later movies).

Particle_person wrote:I'm going to just pause for a moment while I recover from the idea that for some people the so-called love triangle was the most important part of the books.

I overheard someone in my office today mention that they hoped the "love triangle" would pick up more after the second movie. I almost laughed and yelled, "GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!" Of course, someone else also claimed that Hunger Games "ripped off" Battle Royale, so I could have given a ton of lectures today. (Yeah, they're similar, but "dystopic child death matches" is kind of a genre now, and they had different points, focuses, and narrative structures. You might as well say Battle Royale ripped off Ender's Game.)

Rhilin

Posts : 124
Join date : 2011-10-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  bbridges on Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:27 am

Anytime anyone says to me "Hunger Games ripped off Battle Royale" I want to respond with "I get it you watched a Japanese movie." Aside from the fact that the concept of "kids fight to the death" is older than BR it's this strange combination of 'Battle Royale is so prevalent in the culture there is no way Collins didn't know about it' and 'you've probably never heard of it' snobbishness. I watched it before I even heard of The Hunger Games and I don't think they are all that similar at all beyond concept.

Count me in as another person who never cared about Gale at all. When I read the first book he never even seemed important. When I was reading other adult fans perspectives and a bunch of them seemed to be "Team Gale" I just didn't get it. Leaving aside everything else the book spends little to no time with Gale, until the last book. We learn a lot about Peeta, and spend most of the books with him.
avatar
bbridges

Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Gillian on Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:33 am

Cynara wrote:True confession from an (allegedly) grown woman reading books about fictional teenagers: before I read the last two, I flipped to the end of Mockingjay to make sure the names Katniss and Peeta were both there. I didn't even read the page--once I knew they were both alive (and presumably together) I was like "ok let's do this shit." I would have been SO PISSED.
Same here! Only I didn't have access to the third book at the time, so I went to Mockingjay's Wikipedia page and scrolled down to the last paragraph of the synopsis. I saw Peeta's name and was like, "OKAY THEN." All I wanted was for Peeta to live. If he hadn't, I don't think I would have even bothered with the other two.

Gillian

Posts : 472
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  rivki8699 on Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:45 am

Corellderaan wrote:Before I read the books, one of my friends was complaining that she hated book 3 because she was Team Gale and didn't like that Katniss ended up with Peeta. So when I was reading them, I couldn't understand how she ever thought Gale was even a factor. I thought it fairly blatant that Katniss was going to end up with Peeta.
I actually started out on Team Gale (well, to the extent that I preferred him for the first book, but didn't actually care all that much about the "romance"). I was deeply uncomfortable with the idea that Katniss was forced into a romantic relationship with Peeta in order to keep both him and herself alive - Gale seemed much more naturally her match at the start of the story.
avatar
rivki8699

Posts : 162
Join date : 2011-10-22
Age : 36
Location : NYC

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  particle_person on Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:59 am

I can see that POV, but I think she wasn't truly forced into a relationship with him, just forced to play one on TV. It could have stayed that way forever, even if she had to "marry" him. (I think there are actual analogs of this in reality TV, TBH.) As it happened she DID end up feeling something for him, which threw a wrench in things. If you want an older analogy, think of all the royals who've had to marry for the sake of politics. Their feelings don't come into it, except really they do, which generates all the "scandals."

_________________
"Good news, Katniss, I think we've almost got him convinced you're not a mutt!" — Plutarch, attempting to cheer Katniss up about Peeta's condition.
avatar
particle_person
Tech Support

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Kookla on Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:02 am

Heh, yeah, that is exactly how I felt, although I thought that he wasn't meant to JUST be a dick, so much as a guy with a deep rage at the way everyone has always been treated, which comes out as cruelty.

Count me in as another person who never cared about Gale at all. When I read the first book he never even seemed important. When I was reading other adult fans perspectives and a bunch of them seemed to be "Team Gale" I just didn't get it. Leaving aside everything else the book spends little to no time with Gale, until the last book. We learn a lot about Peeta, and spend most of the books with him.

Yes, EXACTLY. Like, I sensed as I was reading that his character had some other morally or thematically specific purpose originally (and probably one that was rooted primarily in friendship with Katniss) but that it got very, very muddled up when she included him in the love triangle. And I could be wrong when I say that Peeta seemed to be written as Katniss's partner all along, but when I compare how much more developed he is otherwise (his wit, his rhetorical skills, his loyalty and devotion, his sense of morals, etc.) it just feels like she had a clear vision for him all along, where somewhere her vision for Gale was altered. Does that make sense? It's too bad, because there was really enough "romantic" conflict in the storyline (not to mention OTHER conflict) already what with Katniss and Peeta being pitted against each other in an arena, him being in love with her, having to pretend, being confused, and basically almost dying at every twist and turn, and Peeta being hijacked...seriously, she could have written it without the love triangle and still made it interesting to those who wanted romance. Then maybe Gale's character would have been developed differently, the way Finnick and Haymitch and Cinna all had awesomely developed relationships with Katniss, but not romantic relationships. Honestly, the only good thing that came out of the romantic angle with Gale was the lines I mentioned earlier about the fire versus the dandelion in spring, but she could have made that realization even without Gale being a factor.

Sorry, Gale is just one of the under or weirdly developed characters in the series (which I love as a whole) that bug me.

Kookla

Posts : 160
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Pop'n'Fresh on Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:59 am

I didn't care about or even really become that aware of the 'love triangle' until Mockingjay. I just didn't think Katniss' romantic life was all that important to the books. I would have liked to see her in 20 years married to some random person who maybe did fight in the rebellion and thus can empathize, but didn't have any particular involvement in all the crap she went through. But that's an issue I take with YA novels in general - I understand they are being written for a younger audience and teens have different expectations, but I do get bored of YA novels acting like who a teenage girl chooses to date is a) soooo important and b) the person who will end up being her life partner.

Re: Mockingjay pin, I didn't get the impression on my initial read that there was anything subversive about the pin, until after Katniss did her stunt with the berries and turned it/herself into the symbol of the rebellion. Because the Capitol still uses them (as a tool in the Games) and okayed her pin after analyzing it. Perhaps the Capitol isn't aware of what it symbolizes to the rebels, or is trying to reclaim it? At least, I liked that Katniss wore it without knowing its true significance. Like it was fate for her to become the Mockingjay. It's a very cool and interesting theory, though. When I re-read I will keep that in mind.

Pop'n'Fresh

Posts : 118
Join date : 2011-10-26

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Luthien on Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:15 am

Anytime anyone says to me "Hunger Games ripped off Battle Royale" I want to respond with "I get it you watched a Japanese movie." Aside from the fact that the concept of "kids fight to the death" is older than BR it's this strange combination of 'Battle Royale is so prevalent in the culture there is no way Collins didn't know about it' and 'you've probably never heard of it' snobbishness.

This is driving me crazy right now. It smacks so much of pseudo-hipster pretentiousness to me. I had never heard of Battle Royale in my life until last year (two years after I read THG books), and I consider myself quite well-read and watch a lot of movies. But I'm not into Japanese culture so I didn't know about it. I keep wanting to fire back: "I just read a Princess of Mars, where people and animals are thrown into an arena day after day and forced to fight to the death until only one remains, and that was written in 1912. Did Battle Royale rip that off?" No, of course not, because the idea of a death arena is ancient. There are so many ancient Roman parallels in the Hunger Games books that Collins has to be drawing on it deliberately. Maybe the writer of Battle Royale did the same.

I felt the love triangle was forced into the books. Maybe Collins did intend it, but maybe her editors got her to play it up especially in Mockingjay after the books took off and became "the new Twilight". That being said, I wouldn't have liked her ending up with someone who wasn't Peeta. Who else could understand her and what she'd gone through? But I could have lived with it. I hate this "team" nonsense. I recently read a good YA historical novel that I enjoyed but was marred by a blatantly obvious love triangle that wasn't really necessary. The author tried to do her best to play it so it didn't take over the book, but I swear she must have been pressured to write it that way. Her previous novel didn't have a triangle.

Luthien

Posts : 204
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  particle_person on Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:04 pm

So I finished Mockingjay last night. (Deep breath.) Wow. Yeah. That was some book. Can someone explain to me what was going on at the end when Coin calls a Victor's council to vote on whether there should be new Hunger Games? I wasn't 100% sure why Katniss thought she had to vote in favor, even though it's obvious in retrospect that she never intended the Games to continue. My thought was that she didn't want to tip Coin off that she wasn't supporting her. (Haymitch either guessed what Katniss was going to do from her "for Prim" comment or had enough faith in her judgment to back her blindly.)

Snow was awesome. Death by schaedenfreud. I don't know if he manipulated Katniss until the end or if he speeded up something Katniss was going to work out anyhow. Or if he simply knew that at the end of the day, people who tried to use Katniss always ended up having the tables turned. (Seriously, starting with Seneca Crane that pattern was pretty clear. The only one who successfully used Katniss without her permission was Haymitch, and he got away with it because she loved him. But not without nearly losing an eye.)

I had a good long laugh at Katniss getting all offended when the boys agreed that she would choose whoever she couldn't survive without. I assume they were getting at the dandelions-vs-firebombs personality difference that Katniss eventually twigged to in the end. She needed the dandelions. It was never gonna be Gale and he knew it.

Here is one weird thing I noticed about the whole series: not once in any of the books is there a single reference to god. There are ceremonies for weddings, and we see three different kinds of wedding tradition in Districts 12, 4, and the Capitol. We learn how they care for the dead. Both of those would bring religion into the picture at the moment, but they don't in the books. Given that religion has been part of humanity from the start, the total absence without any explanation just struck me as very peculiar. Also, war in the present seems to bring in religion even when one side doesn't want to make it a religious issue, as in Afghanistan. I was just really puzzled by the omission.

_________________
"Good news, Katniss, I think we've almost got him convinced you're not a mutt!" — Plutarch, attempting to cheer Katniss up about Peeta's condition.
avatar
particle_person
Tech Support

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  laddical on Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:14 pm

I admit it doesn't make a lot of real world sense - the omission of religion in the future is my Biggest Pet Peeve when it comes to Star Trek. But given the scope of the novels and the heady issues Collins is asking young adults to wrestle with while reading, I think trying to figure out how religion fit in would have been a distraction.
avatar
laddical

Posts : 1607
Join date : 2011-10-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  particle_person on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:26 am

I'm still googling a lot of stuff in these books. For instance:
In Rome a wild rose would be placed on the door of a room where secret or confidential matters were discussed. The phrase sub rosa, or "under the rose", means to keep a secret — derived from this ancient Roman practice.

_________________
"Good news, Katniss, I think we've almost got him convinced you're not a mutt!" — Plutarch, attempting to cheer Katniss up about Peeta's condition.
avatar
particle_person
Tech Support

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Jasmine on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:56 am

I think a LOT of people really really cared about the love triangle in the books, and it was really clear to me from Mockingjay that Collins had to play that up, which made for one of the many things that I hated about Mockingjay. I thought that she turned Gale into a bad guy in Mockingjay (and had him indirectly responsible for Prim's death, so below the belt) simply to make the love triangle decision an easy one, and that Katniss would therefore have to not love Gale anymore. But I also thought that the resolution to the love triangle was so unsatisfying, mostly because I was never convinced that Katniss actually loved Peeta, only that he was the only person (literally, the only person, other than the cat and Haymitch) who survived the revolution and stayed with her, and so finally she just gave in.

But then, I actually thought that Gale's characterization for the first half of Mockingjay was one of the only interesting things about the book.

Jasmine

Posts : 290
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Kookla on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:32 pm

Another plot point I was thinking about the other day: how couldn't the Capitol see that the Quarter Quell that used previous victors was just an insanely bad idea from a rebellion standpoint? I mean, if they thought that Katniss and Peeta (Katniss especially) was responsible for igniting a spark in the other districts, wouldn't the best way to deal with her be privately? I'm thinking that what they did to Haymitch and Finnick was more effective from a punitive standpoint. Making their punishment be so very public just made the rebellion work faster. I guess they just hated her that much? But I just never thought that action made much sense - Snow sped up his own demise the second he announced the Quarter Quell.

Kookla

Posts : 160
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  punzy on Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:12 pm

I agree that it was not a good way to handle the problem of Katniss. I think it was meant to be a statement that the Capitol/Pres Snow held all the power and could break even the winners of the games. Suggesting that even the districts' (presumably) strongest were no match for him.

punzy

Posts : 966
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Heather on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:28 pm

I don't know what it is about the way this section is written, but I couldn't tell what the frick was going on. Maybe someone can articulate why better than I can.

My theory on this one is deadline. Seriously. By the time she was on Mockingjay the publisher was probably a lot more frantic about getting it done in time to print up all those copies and get it on sale exactly when they said, and the book itself feels like she woke up one day and was like HOLY SHIT I HAVE A WEEK TO FINISH THIS THING and so she just rushed.

Heather

Posts : 235
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Red Wolf on Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:46 am

not once in any of the books is there a single reference to god.
I just finished reading today, and you're right. There's a few times when someone says 'oh my god', but that's it. Odd, considering that the church can be another method to control people.

Red Wolf

Posts : 707
Join date : 2011-11-01

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  particle_person on Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:16 am

Red Wolf wrote:
not once in any of the books is there a single reference to god.
I just finished reading today, and you're right. There's a few times when someone says 'oh my god', but that's it. Odd, considering that the church can be another method to control people.

Really? I have the ebooks and the find function on the Kindle reader didn't come up with any hits at all for "god."

_________________
"Good news, Katniss, I think we've almost got him convinced you're not a mutt!" — Plutarch, attempting to cheer Katniss up about Peeta's condition.
avatar
particle_person
Tech Support

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Red Wolf on Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:07 am

Strange. I thought I saw it a few times.

Red Wolf

Posts : 707
Join date : 2011-11-01

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum