Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Unlucky Bear on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:20 pm

During the Stannis/Melisandre scene, my husband smacked my leg and was like "You TOLD me they weren't banging!" And I was like "This is NOT in the book!"

Asha Yara Greyjoy! I LOVE her. Far and away my favorite Iron Islander.

Tyrion continues to own.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  The Dude on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:02 pm

Unlucky Bear wrote:During the Stannis/Melisandre scene, my husband smacked my leg and was like "You TOLD me they weren't banging!" And I was like "This is NOT in the book!"
Is it out of Left Field or is it something implied like Renly and Loras?

So my buddy who i can give an aneurysm making a historic parallel to Lord of The Rings liked this article on the historic inspirations of GoT. And let's face it GRRM was less than subtle in some places, Iron Islands=Ireland. The troubadour Nobo was a bit much though.

Anyway it reminds me of an expression "Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense." borrowing from history does lend to more narrative complexity and blurring the protagonist/antagonist line. I have a hard time coming up with a fictional conflict that's a five-way conflict. I suspect at some point in the war three armies will meet and each will be fighting the other two. There's also the fact that the War of The Roses had the longshot Tudors winning.

It's also a nice contrast too fantasy boondoggles like Dungeons & Dragons: the Movie and Eragon. Writing what you know doesn't work well when you're some depth-less kid whose only frame of reference is multiple viewings of Star Wars.

So was that too MFA thesisy?
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  jstilwe on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:15 pm

Unlucky Bear wrote:During the Stannis/Melisandre scene, my husband smacked my leg and was like "You TOLD me they weren't banging!" And I was like "This is NOT in the book!"
I thought it was pretty strongly implied? I'm vague on the details, but I assumed that was part of how
Spoiler:
she conceived the freaky murdering specter thingy that kills Renly.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  wenchsenior on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:20 pm

[quote="The Dude"]
Unlucky Bear wrote:During the Stannis/Melisandre scene, my husband smacked my leg and was like "You TOLD me they weren't banging!" And I was like "This is NOT in the book!"
Is it out of Left Field or is it something implied like Renly and Loras?

quote]

It was implied, certainly, but the book maintained enough plausible deniability that some people (or possibly just me) didn't really think there was actual physical sex occurring. Certainly, there was symbolica/spiritual union of some sort happening. But this is "It's not gratuitous; it's HBO" after all, so I'm not surprised they are skipping the subtext altogether.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  blixie on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:30 pm

Heh see, I totally thought they were screwing. I would say it's strongly implied, the only reason it's not a "fact" is because Stannis is not actually a POV character in the second book, so all it can be is insinuated via mostly Davos' observations, given that Davos is IMHO the smartest person in the book (or at least the most...unclouded) I took it as fact.

I was SO happy there was so much Arya/Gendry and they were as sparkly fun and interesting as they were in the book. I'm impressed at how they are juggling the timelines, but I think I have to go read spoilers to see where
Spoiler:
the Blackwater is happening, at this rate is it going to be mid season or the season ending cliffhanger, plus I need to know when to get out my kleenex box for Davos and his sons and his finger bones!


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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  The Dude on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:39 pm

[quote="wenchsenior"]
The Dude wrote:
Unlucky Bear wrote:During the Stannis/Melisandre scene, my husband smacked my leg and was like "You TOLD me they weren't banging!" And I was like "This is NOT in the book!"
Is it out of Left Field or is it something implied like Renly and Loras?

quote]

It was implied, certainly, but the book maintained enough plausible deniability that some people (or possibly just me) didn't really think there was actual physical sex occurring. Certainly, there was symbolica/spiritual union of some sort happening. But this is "It's not gratuitous; it's HBO" after all, so I'm not surprised they are skipping the subtext altogether.
HBO's version of Chekov's Law "If you have Clarice Van Houton in the 1st Act her clothes should go off by the 3rd."

Speaking of which, CVH was in Paul Verhoven's Black Book, which is deffinately worth seeing.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  BreezyK on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:55 pm

blixie about your spoiler
Spoiler:
I totally agree about Blackwater, especially when Melisandre whispered to the son about death by fire... so sad and so foreshadowy for those who've read the book!

I am glad that I'm not the only one who didn't think Melisandre/Stannis were actually doing it in the book. I thought he was waaaay too rigid and honorable to actually cheat on his wife.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  queenofdenile on Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:54 pm

I didn't think he was either, but not because of honor, just because he seems so...asexual to me.

Who knows when I'll be able to actually watch these eps, but I'm glad you're all enjoying them! *grumble grumble lack of HBO grumble*
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Unlucky Bear on Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:58 pm

I didn't think they had done it in the book because everyone mocks Stannis as being too uptight to even consider cheating on his ugly wife.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  ulkis on Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:36 pm

Nooooooo Rakharo. I know the actor got a movie part but they could have just had Rakharo wandering out there.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Fiammetta on Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:54 pm

I did a recent reread, and if Melissandre and Stannis weren't outright having an affair, they were at the least up to some sort of ritualistic business together. Davos in particular seems to notice something is up, but he is too polite to dig, of course.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  themis on Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:50 pm

BreezyK wrote:
Spoiler:

I am glad that I'm not the only one who didn't think Melisandre/Stannis were actually doing it in the book. I thought he was waaaay too rigid and honorable to actually cheat on his wife.
Me too, because all that Stannis had going for him was righteousness, in the book. Past the point of all reason. If he doesn't have his honor what leg does he have to stand on, what with his sneering at Ned and Robert for their bastards? Making that an overt thing destroys his credibility and most of his motivation for playing the game. I don't like that. I also feel that in the later books when Melisandre becomes more complex - you see behind her curtain a little -you get how she's fooled herself, and I liked seeing that she wasn't just a manipulator.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  queenofdenile on Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:06 am

This is a guy who was [book spoiler]

Spoiler:
willing to stick his brother's bastard son, a child, into fire and burn him to death for the sake of a ritual.

But cheating on his wife, that would be going too far?

I didn't think Stannis/Melisandre were getting it on in the book but only because I can't picture it, not because I don't believe it. I don't think it's out of character for him at all. He thinks himself above Robert and Ned because he sees them as men who succumbed to lust. Ritualistic intercourse where actual sexual desire and lust are irrelevant and completely beside the point is a different game, and I can completely see Stannis doing it as a means to an end. If we want a real-life equivalent (and I hope I'm not overstepping bounds here), there are religious people and groups that frown on fornication but engage in plenty of procreational sex, and I see Stannis as being that type.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  blixie on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:09 am

Heh, yeah I pretty much pictured it like a Handmaiden coupling and then
Spoiler:
boom: Shadow Baby.
For me though there was enough insinuation both in POV and non-POV chapters in the series for me to connect four.

Making that an overt thing destroys his credibility and most of his motivation for playing the game.

Oh I agree there was no need to make it overt, especially on the battle table with the little soldiers falling all around, all never be happy about the sexposition. But I don't think the Game is about "right" it's about might, and I don't see Stannis' motivations as unique from anyone elses: quest for power, respect, loyalty, and love. None of that comes to him easily, or..at all, his ONLY option is magic via giant Divine Hammer.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  biakbiak on Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:57 pm

Shockingly renewed for Season 3, the only actual shocking part is that it was a week longer than everyone thought.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  queenofdenile on Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:12 pm

Catching up on the last two episodes and I already like this season more than I did season one. And I really liked season one, but season two already seems more fluid and purposeful - even the sexposition that's happened so far were either taken directly from the book, or kept shorter and sweeter. I feel like the writers are getting better at creating good moments between the characters instead of simply filling in a lot of backstory and/or foreshadowing for the future. Heck, even the scene with Roz (WHY IS SHE HERE) was purposeful for establishing more about Littlefinger.

Not sure how I feel about the change of making Joffrey order the murdering of the bastards instead of Cersei. I don't know if I really like the softening behind Cersei's character in general, and also, getting rid of Robert's bastards is not completely stupid idea, and I object to any characterization change that makes Joffrey look less than completely stupid.

Love everything about Dragonstone, Davos is both not how I pictured him and absolutely perfect, Melisandre is great, and I like the guy who plays Stannis as well. The show is also giving me hope that I might find the Iron Islands remotely interesting, when in the book the only one I liked was Asha (and I'm never going to get used to calling her Yara instead).
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  tothemax on Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:42 pm

Queenofdenile, at least Joffrey went about killing Robert's bastards in the most idiotic way possible. He could have easily made their deaths look accidental, but instead he had them killed in ways that all but confirmed they were Robert's bastards. I think such public murders also have the effect of making Stanis' claim that Joffrey is the son of Cersei and Jamie more plausible since they give the appearance someone is afraid they might be legitamate claimants to the throne.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  queenofdenile on Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:07 pm

True, good point. I remember Cersei being a little more subtle about it in the book, which makes sense for her, but doing it publicly to make a point is very in keeping with Stupid Joffrey.

One thing that also confuses me - and it confused me in the book, too - is the way power is defined in King's Landing. Obviously he's king, but he's not of age so Cersei is technically in charge, but she's still only the Queen Regent, so in the show when he threatens her after she slaps him, I'm thinking, "He can't do that! Oh wait, he's the king, so he can. But he also can't, because he's not old enough! But he's still the king..." I mean, if he were of age, I don't think even Lord Tywin could necessarily get away with going, "Yeah, I know you ordered to me to be Hand of the King, but I'm doing other stuff so take your dwarf uncle instead." This is all probably very simple and I'm probably making it more complicated than it is, but there you go.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  The Dude on Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:18 pm

Being an illiterate here, the impression I get from Joffrey is that he's a sadist so killing the bastards is almost as much about enjoying a public display of violence more than anything. I assume whatever popularity he'll have will erode pretty quick.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  xyzzy on Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:41 am

This is all probably very simple and I'm probably making it more complicated than it is, but there you go.
I view it as an issue of family dynamics. Perhaps Tywin doesn't have the legal right to send a hand-in-stead, but I think he's ultimately a patriarch of a family with broken dynamics.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  blixie on Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:58 am

This is all probably very simple and I'm probably making it more complicated than it is, but there you go.

Hey no I think it IS pretty complicated. But again might, Tywin has it not only in that he's the hand Joff/Cersei chose, but in that he is literally their paternal figure and he's a figure they both know the people of Kings Landing are very partial to as a ruler type. I think even Joff knows that "letting" Tywin have his way as regards Tyrion as hand at least, is a good idea.

I think a king, even a boy king has absolute power, he can't serve on the council, but the council is still there to mostly do what he says, and he can also give "orders" w/o their council, like killing all the bastards. I think the Queen Regent's only power is to sit on that council in his stead, but if Joff were a good person/ruler at his age I think he would at least sit in. Bran is overseeing business part of ruling at Winterfell, but Joff isn't interested in the boring hard part of being King, only the humiliation and murdering at will part. I think Cersei's role as Regent is also further minimized by the fact that Joff is a teenager, they are bad enough when they don't know they are literally King of the World.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Unlucky Bear on Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:02 pm

Game of Thrones pickup lines

I made a very undignified noise reading some of these.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  The Dude on Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:01 am

Now Yoren? Those Lannisters kill everything I love.

Tyrion is certainly a proactive hand. Can't blame him for cleaning the slate though.

I already like Margery. I wasn't expecting the story angle of her knowing everything already.



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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  ulkis on Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:07 am

Sansa all of a sudden seems much older in this episode. She looked very lovely too.

Balon is as big an idiot as Theon. He just covers it better since he's older and looks tougher.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  The Dude on Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:09 am

I did like Theon's rant at him. I kept thinking that he talks a good fight for a vasal.
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