Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Agent Sculder on Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:07 pm

punkysdilemma wrote:I was a *little* skeptical that the body double was supposed to be that of a woman who had had three kids, but they did a good job compositing it all.  I assume Lena Headey's pregnancy made it necessary, or does she have a no nudity clause?  

I'm pretty sure the need for a body double was primarily because of Lena Heady's pregnancy. She's been naked in movies before, so I'm guessing she would have done it for GoT. However, I also think they would have used one to some extent even if she hadn't been pregnant just because it was such an extensive, an emotionally trying scene. At some point, the actor is going to need breaks, and by using a body double the production can continue to shoot.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  ulkis on Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:13 pm

queenofdenile wrote:I don't believe Jon is dead despite what Kit Harrington says. This would not be the first time that a show I watched insisted that a huge character was dead, no for real, we even took the actor's name out of the credits, only to have that character come back.

But on the off off chance that he IS, I'm done. I can handle darkness, I can't handle monotonous sadism. And I'm pissed that I'll have to deal with the king of monotonous sadism, Ramsay, for another year.

word. I really don't think he is though. I don't think the show runners would have bothered to bring up the Lyanna hints earlier this season if the plan was just to kill him off.

Didn't enjoy Cersei's walk of shame but I don't blame people who did. Cersei is fucking awful. Jonathan Pryce (is his name High Sparrow?) though, sucks, and I believe he would have done that to relatively less innocent women than Cersei, so he can get run over by a horse.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  ulkis on Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:26 pm

Agent Sculder wrote:You already have people who are pissed off about what happened to Jon and are now saying they're going to quit the show because they're no one good left to root for.  Throw in the interview that Kit Harrington gave confirming that he's dead and that Jon Snow ISN'T coming back, and it seems that maybe Jon really is dead.

I mean I suppose he could be telling the truth, but would he really give away ANYTHING that even remotely hints that Jon will come back? It wouldn't make sense to kill the character and then have the actor reassure the audience a day later that he'll be fine.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  The Dude on Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:25 pm

Samwell will wake up and pull back a shower curtain to find Jon.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Corvus on Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:40 pm

(is his name High Sparrow?)
That's his title, like Pope, or better: Dalai Lama. I believe the holder renounces his birth name when he takes up the position.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  The Dude on Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:35 pm

Corvus wrote:
(is his name High Sparrow?)
That's his title, like Pope, or better: Dalai Lama. I believe the holder renounces his birth name when he takes up the position.

My theory is GRRM was sick of coming up with names and said "Fuck it! Septons renounce their name!"
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Cynara on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:16 pm

It's also possible that Benioff and Weiss lied their faces off to Kit Harington so he'd be convincing in interviews.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  bookworm on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:20 pm

I don't see them doing that because now he's going to go off and sign contracts to do other projects which might prevent him from appearing in future episodes.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  blixie on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:54 pm

I think they most likely have his time line nailed down (much like Katee Sackhoff and BSG), in that case her return was limited and she did actually take other stuff on. I don't think they will do this with Jon/Kit though, they wouldn't have made the point of having Mel at the Wall unless they intended to pick up that thread immediately next season (or at least in the first couple of episodes), plus they can't conceal Kit shooting on location, if he is alive. But, C'MON, he's as dead as Davos Seaworth was in AffC. Maybe slightly more damaged....

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  emrie on Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:00 pm

Vanity Fair has collected a lot of Jon Snow is alive truther evidence.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Kookla on Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:40 pm

So now that the show is nearly caught up to the books (essentially) I haven't really been worried about being spoiled and have been reading book summaries.

Books 4 and 5 sound like a bit of an un-filmable mess from the summaries. After reading the original storylines I'm definitely having a lot more interesting feelings regarding the show. For the most part, it seems like they've done a good job in the translation - I can't even fathom that many characters as the story originally had; the show has so many as it is.

However, how does everyone feel about Jaime's stuff this season as compared to the books? I'd heard a few references to the show "ruining" his character a bit, and while it doesn't feel like that for me exactly (except for that one bizarre notarape scene in Season 4 that seemed more a directorial mishap than anything) I do think that NCW has been underutilized as an actor since Season 3 when I think he was MVP. I read his Riverrun stuff from the books and I have mixed feelings. It seems good for Jaime's internal character development, but I'm not sure how good it would be on TV. Basically neither storyline of Jaime's seems like it carries much weight, until he meets up with Brienne again (and it ends on a cliffhanger). And I guess the Dorne failure (if Mycella is dead) will expedite Jaime/Cersei estrangement. Will he even return to King's Landing? Will he even be able to face Cersei with the body of their daughter?

I had a thought... is it possible that Jaime goes to Tarth, and then somehow Brienne and Jaime meet up from there? The only reason I mention it is because of that weird extraneous scene in Season 5 when Jaime looks at Tarth on the way to Dorne. Maybe they're foreshadowing it as some sort of stop over. But how are they going to get them to any point of conflict without Lady Stoneheart? Hmmm.

Sorry for the ramblings. Obviously I know Jon Snow is the bigger fish to fry, I just got tired of speculating "is he mostly dead? or all dead?" in my own brain and decided to think about something else.


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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:23 am

Yeah, I kind of liked Jaime's Riverrun story but only because, rather than follow the pattern of the POV character going off on their own and meeting all new people, he went off on his own and interacted with some people we actually knew! I also liked it from an internal perspective--we got to see him go through the slow process of detaching from Cersei. And it was nice seeing him succeed at being a diplomat.

So yeah, it was cool for character growth reasons, but not exactly thrilling and I totally get why they did the Dorne thing with him instead (and pairing him with Bronn was a great idea). It's just that the Dorne story was a huge fail in general, IMO, so it ended up kind of bleh, and he still seems quite attached to Cersei so it's like we're ahead of the game in plot action for him but behind in growth.

The show is so frustrating to me because on the one hand, I appreciate and even prefer D&D's story choices so much of the time. But when they screw something up, they really go all the way. I could let go of the misogyny if it stayed in line with the books--no more, and preferably less. But instead, it's like they look for openings to just make everything worse for every female character, and ugh.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  blixie on Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:08 am

Well I haven't been shy about NOT liking and really not getting almost any of the decisions D&D make, some of them end up being better, a lot end up worse, there are ones I understand (like not showing Jamie in the Riverlands, collapsing Arianne into Ellaria) but I still think they are failures of adaptation.

I liked this season I think more than last (if only for Hardhome, the best episode of the series IMO), but I feel like Book 4 and 5 were problematic, for a lot of us, because they felt like obvious and tremendous stalls, self indulgent in the desire to world build instead of make headway on the plot or even the characters by introducing boatloads more one at least who was a quite literal wast of time (Quentyn) and another who seems rather obviously to be the same (Young Griff, although at least there I can see the idea of Westoros being open to ANY heri of Rhaegars in preference to those who have battling for the realm so far).

But one of the ONLY things I liked about the two books was the secret badassery of Doran Martell and I admit I enjoyed the Dorne storyline generally even before that, even supposed Dorkstar I liked. And the other part is the Northern Lords part of Book 5, there is finally after so long some hint that the effing Lannister's and bad guys are PAYING/LOSING, and some hint that the Starks/heroes are on the upswing (Davos looking for Rickon, Bran in his Tree, Arya in training, Jon becoming AA, Sansa becoming a player in the Vale, Stoneheart and Manderlay killing Freys). And almost NONE of that translated this year, the dispensed with both Stoneheart AND Manderlay thus no dead Freys, they dispensed with Sansa in the Vale, and had her get raped instead, and they utterly bungled Dorne. So while they cut out a great deal of what I did not like about AffC/ADWD, they also cut out most of what I liked, and at the end it all still feels like on giant STALL, just like the books did.


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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:53 pm

blixie wrote:I liked this season I think more than last (if only for Hardhome, the best episode of the series IMO), but I feel like Book 4 and 5 were problematic, for a lot of us, because they felt like obvious and tremendous stalls [...] But one of the ONLY things I liked about the two books was the secret badassery of Doran Martell and I admit I enjoyed the Dorne storyline generally even before that, even supposed Dorkstar I liked. And the other part is the Northern Lords part of Book 5, there is finally after so long some hint that the effing Lannister's and bad guys are PAYING/LOSING, and some hint that the Starks/heroes are on the upswing (Davos looking for Rickon, Bran in his Tree, Arya in training, Jon becoming AA, Sansa becoming a player in the Vale, Stoneheart and Manderlay killing Freys). And almost NONE of that translated this year, the dispensed with both Stoneheart AND Manderlay thus no dead Freys, they dispensed with Sansa in the Vale, and had her get raped instead, and they utterly bungled Dorne. So while they cut out a great deal of what I did not like about AffC/ADWD, they also cut out most of what I liked, and at the end it all still feels like on giant STALL, just like the books did.
This was definitely my least favorite season, both for stalling/failed storyline reasons, and because of Sansa's rape and Shireen's murder (among other smaller acts of misogyny along the way). I think I liked S4 better because of Oberyn, Arya and the Hound, more Lady Olenna...in fact, I think the only storyline I truly didn't like last year was Dany's, and that was for the same reasons I disliked it in the book (she got so arrogant and I hate Daario). I mean, I didn't relish the Vale storyline, but it was still engaging.

But you're right, D&D really did the same amount of stalling on storytelling this season as GRRM did in the books. I was initially so happy with the changes because they were primarily about consolidating story and bringing characters we already know together, sometimes in new ways. I still come down on the side of that being an improvement over the books. Most of my favorite scenes from this season (aside from Hardhome) were just conversations between great characters, many of whom were not together or had never met at this point in the books, or the conversations never occurred. (Stannis/Shireen hug (EFF YOU 5EVA), Olenna/High Sparrow, Tyrion/Varys every time, Dany/Tyrion, Tyrion/Jorah, off the top of my head.) In TV, and in any serial, I ultimately care more about characters/relationships than story, so I am willing to handwave a lot for character/relationship development. So the fact that we saw some of that stuff I'd been craving for the last two books and never got--it made me ignore the way D&D were also stalling the plot.

And yeah, it is deeply unsatisfying that the villains aren't paying yet on the show, and in fact I think that's why a lot of non-bookreader fans are starting to get itchy. Many people seemed to turn a corner after Sansa's rape, then Shireen's murder, and then Jon's "death"--but I think it's not entirely about the grimness of those events; it's more what you're talking about. There's no balance. The good people--the very, very few good people on the show--keep paying and paying and being tortured and abused and killed, but the truly bad people didn't pay this season in a similar manner. Cersei comes the closest, but I think there are plenty of people (like me) who see her as more of an antihero than True Evil like Joff or Ramsay, for example. I got no satisfaction on the show from her imprisonment and torture. Stannis kinda gets his, but he's not really the person you want to pay there--that's Melisandre, and as usual, she walks away with nary a scratch. The Boltons seem to be stronger than ever, and the Freys are untouched. And I can't point to a lot of fist-pump moments where the good guys get a victory. Jon being named LC, I guess, though that's pretty quickly shown to be more curse than blessing. Drogon coming for Dany, but again, undermined by the fact that she lost control of the city first. Arya killing Meryn, but that was sort of abrupt, lacked the build-up necessary to be really satisfying.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Kookla on Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:41 pm

The Boltons seem to be stronger than ever, and the Freys are untouched.
The Boltons seem to be in about the same place they were in the book descriptions, unless I'm missing something. The Freys I think are not so much untouched as forgotten in the story for the time being. The thing is, unless it's Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow, and Walder Frey specifically getting their comeuppance, I don't think it's going to make much of an impact on TV.

(Davos looking for Rickon, Bran in his Tree, Arya in training, Jon becoming AA, Sansa becoming a player in the Vale, Stoneheart and Manderlay killing Freys).
I can see how the first, second, and fourth things could still be major factors next season. Sansa's storyline in the Vale reads like the equivalent of a big ole pile of nothing from the book descriptions, to be honest; I probably would have had the same idea to put her where they did this season as well. Arya I'm not sure about. The Lady Stoneheart thing is the one part that I probably would have really liked to see, just for the audience shock value, and I think it would have played well on TV. Also, it seems to tie Brienne's story (with Jaime's) together nicely, so I'm very curious what they're going to do now. No solution I can come up with in my head is as elegant. There might be some reason for not including it that they *can't* mention (ie. more surprise when Jon Snow get resurrected, etc.)

Speaking of Jon Snow, I've been trying to brainstorm ways that he can be dead and stay dead and still have it be meaningful. I've come up with:
What if his death is the actual blood sacrifice needed for the real chosen one - Dany - since he has Targaryan blood? Melisandre's visions(?) have been confused by Stannis' part Targaryan heritage, which is why she has backed him so stupidly. When they burn Jon's body at the wall, Melisandre is going to have new, truer visions and Dany is going to benefit somehow. We learn about Jon's true parentage through flashbacks.

Or... maybe he's just resurrected and everyone involved who protests to much are lying liars who lie.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:25 pm

Kookla wrote:
The Boltons seem to be stronger than ever, and the Freys are untouched.
The Boltons seem to be in about the same place they were in the book descriptions, unless I'm missing something. The Freys I think are not so much untouched as forgotten in the story for the time being. The thing is, unless it's Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow, and Walder Frey specifically getting their comeuppance, I don't think it's going to make much of an impact on TV.
I think you're right about that last thing in some ways, but personally, there was a lot of satisfaction in seeing families like the Manderleys taking on the goal of killing Freys, seeing some of the Northerners still supportive of the Starks, etc. We saw the one old woman, basically, and she was then killed by Ramsay. It's just...blech on blech. And the Boltons--well at least in the book, the Bolton forces also marched out into the snow and suffered losses. Yeah, Ramsay and Roose were still alive, but it was a struggle--not just a successful rout by Ramsay. Plus, Theon/Jeyne seemed to have escaped for real, and the Manderleys (plus Mance Rayder) were working against them/the Freys in their own house, so it just felt like the forces of good were at work. Here, we just saw smug Ramsay win at every turn.

I'm not saying they're not going to remedy some of these things in future seasons; just saying that this is why this season felt discouraging to some people, and why those awful moments felt even worse, more like shark-jumping, rage-quit-worthy events. Because there weren't enough wins to balance the losses.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Kookla on Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:37 am

I think this show plays with the expectations of who you want to see "pay" and how, and also confuses them a bit. I'm not going to argue that there's any confusion about Bolton/Ramsay/Frey - they are clearly villains (though I rather enjoy the actor who plays Roose Bolton). But then Joffrey is dead, in spectacular fashion, so he's paid. There's Tywin, also dead at the hands of someone who wronged him tremendously, and who spearheaded the Red Wedding, but he was such a good character I mourn his loss a lot. Cersei is an evil bitch, so the moment when she's arrested is tremendously entertaining. But then you feel bad for her during the walk. Stannis (who I would argue has never been positioned as a hero) commits one of the worst atrocities on the show, but pays for it almost immediately with Stannis and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day. But then there's these feelings of: "but does it feel hollow?/but he's paid for it!/but is it anticlimax?/but he deserved it!" Melisandre hasn't paid for anything yet, true. But she's interesting and may be continually important to the story. So who are the good guys left, that deserve a win? We could start a book length debate about whether Jon is still in the game. There's Bran, who was wronged in the first episode (understatement) by Jaime... but I don't want Jaime to pay for that because I like Jaime (which is crazy nuts, and one of the more hilarious surprises of this story) even though what he did was downright evil. That's why the Lady Stoneheart thing is just so interesting to me. In the books she's seeking vengeance on all the Freys, which great! But then she wants to take it out on Jaime, which nooooooo! But he tried to murder her other son, so it's ironically deserving! But still, noooooo! I think Sansa is the character that has people the most riled up, but escaping with Theon, finding out that Bran/Rickon are alive are possible small victories that might be added to later on.

And I can't point to a lot of fist-pump moments where the good guys get a victory
Daenerys does have the most, in all seasons. I think it feels "off" because she's separate (until Tyrion showed up) but that's a function of the story. Does it work? Does it not work? I suppose that depends on how much an audience member likes Daenerys.

I'm not trying to be a show apologist at all, and I don't know what's going to happen in the future, I'm just pointing out that this story, for me, has really blurred the lines of good guy/bad guy, hero/antihero, what should happen vs. what is happening vs. what I want to see happen vs. what is interesting to see happen.

I'm going to also make the following prediction: I think they are setting up a situation where all most ruthless villains are going to be the last ones standing (Littlefinger comes to mind) as the defacto "winners" of the Game of Thrones in Westeros... just in time to be BBQed or frozen (dragons or whitewalkers... in case that wasn't clear).

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  blixie on Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:50 pm

The Boltons seem to be in about the same place they were in the book descriptions, unless I'm missing something.

Honestly? Yes, in the books the reader does not know the outcome of the Battle at Winterfell, the status of Stannis and his army, or the Boltons and their army, beyond the boasts and threats of Ramsay's Pink Letter, which may be true, maybe lies, and is most like a mix of the two.

What we got on the show was decisive absolute and complete victory by smugly and super powered midget Ramsay and his army, and a dead Stannis.

and the Manderleys (plus Mance Rayder)

Right, Wyman Manderlay is killing Freys and serving Bolton's Frey Pies, Mance and his Wildling women are knocking off Bolton forces from within at Winterfell as The Ghost of Winterfell (and I think Wyman was too), the element after so long of ACTIVE RESISTANCE by Northern Lords, that all of them are simply biding time to turn on the Boltons when they meet Stannis on the field of Battle. And on the other side of the world in Dorne, the Martells are bringing together the years long plot against Kings Landing/Lannisters.

I'm just pointing out that this story, for me, has really blurred the lines of good guy/bad guy, hero/antihero

I love how morally complicated the characters of ASOIF are, but even and especially within that I still find there to be DEFINITE hero tropes in Dany and Jon, and I would never have invested in this story without rootable characters who are "good" who deserve to WIN, and seeing monstrous characters lose.

Also I don't think any of GRRM's villians are really grey: Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, The Mountain, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay, Roose, not one of those motherfuckers is "grey", they are human, and complicated, but not morally complicated. Same with Stannis when you burn innocents and on the show your own daughter moral complication has left the building.



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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Kookla on Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:49 pm

Also I don't think any of GRRM's villians are really grey: Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, The Mountain, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay, Roose, not one of those motherfuckers is "grey", they are human, and complicated, but not morally complicated. Same with Stannis when you burn innocents and on the show your own daughter moral complication has left the building.
No no, they're definitely not grey (just wanted to make that clarification). But some of the villains are just as entertaining and interesting as the heroes (some, not all), sometimes more, and mainly the ones I listed in my previous post and for the reasons I listed. The line is blurred as to whether or not that's a result of the writing, the script, the actors, Martin's intentions, the showrunners, etc. Ramsay definitely isn't one of these particularly entertaining or interesting villains, but I don't know, maybe he gets it spectacularly later in the story. I'm not holding my breath, but one can hope.

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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  Corvus on Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:14 pm

If I knew more about Theory of Literature, I'd want to ask 'who is the protagonist around here?' Absent a main (or main+almost main) character(s), we're not looking at a 'story,' we're watching a history. My reaction to Jon's getting stabbed: sadly it was a shrug. If he is resurrected, then it isn't a particularly significant event. (I'd call him the Dean Winchester of Westeros, but Jon Snow wishes he was that dynamic). If he isn't, then add his character to the ashpile of history. Shrug. Same with the maybe-death of Stannis supposedly creating mystery, based solely on a camera edit. What, Brienne might have missed? Stagey and manipulative, and not in the good way.

Perhaps the book experience has to be different from the television experience. Histories don't quite have 'heroes' and 'villains', even reverential biographies, they document events, so 'grey' is just the facts, ma'am, events are what is important, not journeys or growth or whatever. I'm thinking 'Lord of the Rings' versus 'The Silmarillion.' The second is interesting, to be sure, but not engaging on a personal narrative level. Game of Thrones; expecting the first, but feeling the second.
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Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Post  blixie on Tue May 31, 2016 10:13 am

OMG yaass BENJEN IS COLDHANDS. I knew it!! I mean whatever, the important part is Benjen is not dead, and Coldhands is there to protect Meera/Bran who I totes thought were going to kiss before being overwhelmed by zombies. I've heard some people saying that this is an invention of the show, a way to make us vested in Coldhands by attaching a familiar face, and that book Coldhands still could not possibly be Benjen, but WHAT THE FUCK EVER. Because GRRM has like a million of these X might actually be Y teases and herrings (Jaquen/Syrio, Sarella/Alleras, Septa Lemore/Ashara Dayne, Lyanna/Knight of Flowers) and this is easily the one I care the most about.

I also loved that indeed Arya is a STARK, will always be a Wolf, and has recovered Needle so she can defend herself from the waif who is coming for her.

I know some people are bored of Dany's speeches, but I love them, and I like that there seems to be subtle turn to the idea that she should not lead Westeros, that she is like the rest of the Targ's, just lusting for power and vengeance, was made to conquore not to rule. But I think when she gets to Westeros she'll be brought low in way that's actually interesting, instead of conquering/ruling the kingdom, she'll have to work with Jon to save it from the Knights King and his ice zombie nation.

The only thing bumming me out on the show is fucking Cersei, who continues to be portrayed as just so rational, and calm, and even justified against her new enemy The Faith. Meh.

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