Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Kiran on Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:21 pm

I thought the much less charitable someone wants more buzz and attention because their career is kinda meh.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Putli Bai on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:24 am

When the Whedonverse folded up camp, I wondered which of the players would still have careers, and I'd have bet money on Emma Caulfield coming out on top. Maybe it was my love of Anya talking, but I always enjoyed her comic timing and thought she did a terrific job. I knew SMG would do all right, along with Alyson Hannigan and Seth Green, and that we'd never see Amber Benson again.

The person I thought would do worst? David Boreanaz. Shows what I know.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  swsa on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:48 am

I was never sure about Boreanaz. On the one hand, I think he showed a savvy, almost detached business sense during Angel that made me think he was cut throat enough to make it. Plus, appearance-wise, he's very easy to slot into a wide range of leading man roles. OTOH, his movie output during AtS was SO BAD. All in all, I guess I'm not shocked he made it, but I am shocked Bones made it, hee.

I expected more from SMG. I think she had some rough breaks that she couldn't have counted on (Richard Kelly proving himself a one-hit wonder and Southland Tales being a godawful mess, Girls' Guide to Hunting and Fishing being turned into such a useless rom com even with Alec Baldwin on board, Ringer being dumped on the CW), but even so, she also made some pretty questionable choices. I hope her new sitcom works out. I do think she's just not made for film.

Anthony Stewart Head, Hannigan, Green, Marsters, Brendon, Carpenter, Benson all ended up where I expected, respectively.

Trachtenberg and Caulfield did worse than I expected. Amy Acker did better.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Kiran on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:56 pm

Trachtenberg always seems to get pilots though. I think it's just a matter of one of those pilots working. The one I always thought would do better was Eliza Dushku. I always thought she was never much of an actress outside of Faith but man did they ever try and make her happen.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  RiverThames on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:27 pm

Benson seems to be doing fine-- some independent movies and her novels. Not the path I would have guessed, but she's got nothing to complain about. She gets to hang out with John Scalzi and Wil Wheaton. There's worse fates.

I'm surprised about Emma. If any of you saw TIMER, that's a pretty charming movie. And her IMDB shows she's working solidly. Nothing huge, but clearly taking home a paycheck on a regular enough basis. Based on her youtube channel, she seems to have a lovely house. But... yeah.


SMG is in the problematic position to be big enough to be able to headline a movie... but not big enough to be really choosy about scripts.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Kiran on Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:19 pm

Her CBS pilot will at least be guaranteed buzz. Its David E. Kelley and stars Robin Williams. That is not to guarantee it will do well, or be any good, but it'll at least be high profile.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  swsa on Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:24 pm

Kiran wrote:Trachtenberg always seems to get pilots though. I think it's just a matter of one of those pilots working.
Considering how much younger she was than the rest of the cast and that I think she had by far the most aggressive PR team of all of them, I just expected more. Instead, she's settled into tv guest star territory. Which is just fine by me. But I do think had we guessed this is where she'd be back in 2004, we wouldn't have considered it a successful run for her.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Author By Night on Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:43 am

I've been rewatching the series... sometimes I wonder if the reason a lot of fans felt the show wasn't as good after season three is because it really was a completely different show with the same cast and characters after season three. Early Buffy really is a high school parody of sorts, with most of the plotlines revolving around teenage issues. Then they become adults and have adult issues, and I think that made it lose some of its charm. (And that's why I was so glad there wasn't an 8th Harry Potter book, but that's a different issue.)

Also, I felt they missed an opportunity with Willow's magic issues. I actually don't mind her having gone evil, but they turned it into a drug metaphor when they really didn't have to. The whole reason Willow gets into magic is because Jenny Calendar dies and she's trying to work from where Jenny finished - why didn't they just work with that? Work with Willow trying so hard to be good, she actually becomes evil? That would've made more sense and felt less preachy than the whole drug metaphor.


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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Putli Bai on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:08 pm

Speaking of Whendonverse alumni getting work: Joss Whedon Casts Angel Alum J. August Richards in S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Carrie Ann on Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Author By Night wrote:I've been rewatching the series... sometimes I wonder if the reason a lot of fans felt the show wasn't as good after season three is because it really was a completely different show with the same cast and characters after season three. Early Buffy really is a high school parody of sorts, with most of the plotlines revolving around teenage issues. Then they become adults and have adult issues, and I think that made it lose some of its charm.
I think that's definitely a big part of it - when the series was decentralized from the high school, the show felt less cohesive. There was no true center anymore in terms of geography or story. In addition, starting with Season 4, they put a lot more focus on the individual character's lives. So we see Willow more on her own with Tara, Buffy off with Riley and the Initiative, Xander working and dating Anya, and Giles at loose ends. Yeah, they made that a story point - the characters are growing apart - but it also did damage to the heart of the show that never fully healed. I felt like JW's attachment to being "realistic" about adult life was a detriment to the show. There has to be a way to be more even-handed with showing adult struggles while still keeping the heart of your show intact.

At the end of the series, if you told me that Buffy left the Sunnydale area and didn't see Willow, Xander, or Giles anymore I wouldn't be surprised.* And that's heartbreaking. But those characters did so much damage to each other in those four seasons as "adults" that as a viewer, you weren't left with much to root for.

*I'm aware of the comics, but I can't bring myself to read them.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  CaroJC on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:43 am

Author By Night wrote:I've been rewatching the series... sometimes I wonder if the reason a lot of fans felt the show wasn't as good after season three is because it really was a completely different show with the same cast and characters after season three. Early Buffy really is a high school parody of sorts, with most of the plotlines revolving around teenage issues. Then they become adults and have adult issues, and I think that made it lose some of its charm. (And that's why I was so glad there wasn't an 8th Harry Potter book, but that's a different issue.)

Also, I felt they missed an opportunity with Willow's magic issues. I actually don't mind her having gone evil, but they turned it into a drug metaphor when they really didn't have to. The whole reason Willow gets into magic is because Jenny Calendar dies and she's trying to work from where Jenny finished - why didn't they just work with that? Work with Willow trying so hard to be good, she actually becomes evil? That would've made more sense and felt less preachy than the whole drug metaphor.


I actually think that a lot of Buffy's Latter Year issues are a result of the writers not really having a huge vision for where they wanted to go with the supporting characters combined with not having enough story to fill a season. I liked season 4 and season 5 well enough, so I do think the show survived the transition from high school. (I was actually a freshman in college when Buffy was and found the college episodes very relatable until the show decided to move away from them completely).

Seasons 6 and 7 are not very good. I also rewatched the series recently and thought that they might seem better in retrospect, but ... no. Ultimately, there are just multiple episodes where the characters are having the same conversations and they are paced terribly. It is like the writers came up with general ideas (First Evil! Life is Hell!) and not much beyond that so each of these seasons ends up in a boring holding pattern till the climax.

The Willow drug thing was terrible - I actually think they were originally going in the direction of Willow having power issues, rather than the literal addiction metaphor, but changed directions.

The character writing was weird, too. Xander is totally marginalized (I know this was partly due to Nick Brendon's real life issues); Giles is written strangely; Spike is ALL over the place. I think the writers had a vision for Buffy and her story mostly works for me, but were any of the other character arcs satisfying at all?

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Red Wolf on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:08 am

Spike is ALL over the place.
Duelling writers, IIRC. Marti felt he was a romantic antihero, while either DeKnight or Greenwalt I think saw him as an irredeemable monster. This is why shows need someone in charge, to lay down the character direction and to make sure everyone sticks with it.

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Matinee on Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:55 am

CaroJC wrote:
Author By Night wrote:I've been rewatching the series... sometimes I wonder if the reason a lot of fans felt the show wasn't as good after season three is because it really was a completely different show with the same cast and characters after season three. Early Buffy really is a high school parody of sorts, with most of the plotlines revolving around teenage issues. Then they become adults and have adult issues, and I think that made it lose some of its charm. (And that's why I was so glad there wasn't an 8th Harry Potter book, but that's a different issue.)

Also, I felt they missed an opportunity with Willow's magic issues. I actually don't mind her having gone evil, but they turned it into a drug metaphor when they really didn't have to. The whole reason Willow gets into magic is because Jenny Calendar dies and she's trying to work from where Jenny finished - why didn't they just work with that? Work with Willow trying so hard to be good, she actually becomes evil? That would've made more sense and felt less preachy than the whole drug metaphor.


I actually think that a lot of Buffy's Latter Year issues are a result of the writers not really having a huge vision for where they wanted to go with the supporting characters combined with not having enough story to fill a season. I liked season 4 and season 5 well enough, so I do think the show survived the transition from high school. (I was actually a freshman in college when Buffy was and found the college episodes very relatable until the show decided to move away from them completely).

Seasons 6 and 7 are not very good. I also rewatched the series recently and thought that they might seem better in retrospect, but ... no. Ultimately, there are just multiple episodes where the characters are having the same conversations and they are paced terribly. It is like the writers came up with general ideas (First Evil! Life is Hell!) and not much beyond that so each of these seasons ends up in a boring holding pattern till the climax.

The Willow drug thing was terrible - I actually think they were originally going in the direction of Willow having power issues, rather than the literal addiction metaphor, but changed directions.

The character writing was weird, too. Xander is totally marginalized (I know this was partly due to Nick Brendon's real life issues); Giles is written strangely; Spike is ALL over the place. I think the writers had a vision for Buffy and her story mostly works for me, but were any of the other character arcs satisfying at all?

I will always hold a grudge against Allison Hannigan for the shitty magic addition story line - I heard that the original plan was to have Willow be the "Big Bad" for more of the season, but that she whined to Joss and the writers to change it so she was only bad for a little bit. Willow becoming crazy with power was foreshadowed for a long time and I wish they had better followed through.

They also didn't handle necessary character reduction (GILES!) well. They could have written him out more smoothly in a way that he wasn't a dick to Buffy.

I also really hate the writing where the other characters (especially Willow) are down on Buffy for her choices in season 6 while being a bunch of mooching whiners (sorry your mom's dead and you're supporting you and your sister while insane with grief over being pulled out of heaven - we're just going to live rent-free in your house and judge you!!). I know their intent was to keep Buffy down but they do so and yet still expect me to agree with Willow et al - which, no.

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Carrie Ann on Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:07 pm

Matinee wrote:They also didn't handle necessary character reduction (GILES!) well. They could have written him out more smoothly in a way that he wasn't a dick to Buffy.
I've had other thoughts about what they could have done with him in Seasons 6 and 7, but one option (had they been thinking ahead) is that he could have been working to track down other Potentials in Season 6 as well. Maybe the danger could have already been building or something. Anyway, just making the choice to abandon Buffy when she needed him to go... do nothing in England was a terrible call.

I always forget about the writers' room split w/r/t Spike, but sometimes I feel like it extended to everything on the show (Buffy vs. Everyone in S7, for example). All of the characters were compromised by the end, but the worst thing the show could have done was to have them all abandon her or judge her or whine that she wasn't doing enough for them, after relying on Buffy to take care of them (and pulling her into a hellish existence). I mean, if the writers really thought all fans were going to be on the side of the people letting Buffy pay their bills for them while they shrugged their shoulders helplessly.... And if they didn't, I mean, how much did you want people to hate your hero? Because that did work for some people, and they never went back to loving Buffy.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  swsa on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:21 pm

I never really had a problem with Giles leaving. When I think about how he was completely willing to sacrifice Dawn in The Gift, but then by the start of S6, we're expected to think of him as her father figure...THAT was actually harder for me to buy than that he would look at the whole mess and be like, "I'm out." I feel like he consistently tried to back away from assuming the father role that Buffy was anxious to fit him into, and in S6, it was worse than ever, with her basically expecting him to raise Dawn for her.

I do wish they'd made it more textual that he just emotionally wasn't willing to do that and maybe even gone into him wanting to pull back so it wouldn't hurt so much the NEXT time Buffy died. And I can for sure agree that him continuing to be paid by the Watcher's Council while Buffy was flipping burgers was all kinds of bullshit.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  chick binewski on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:30 am

Ridiculously excited to hear FX is going to be airing Buffy again starting September 3rd - two episodes every morning at 7 & 8am. Yeah, I own the box set but I originally started watching Buffy when it was on during this time slot; it was right after a car accident, I would always wake up in a lot of pain (still do) but Buffy made me feel like I could kick a little ass if I really tried.  

Also for any Charisma fans: she's hosting a new show, Surviving Evil, on ID starting next week. I knew she was a survivor of a violent crime, but the link gives some detail of the attack. I know Carpenter has to sell the series but it sounds like overall the show has been a positive experience for her.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  ulkis on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:20 pm

I feel like he consistently tried to back away from assuming the father role that Buffy was anxious to fit him into, and in S6, it was worse than ever, with her basically expecting him to raise Dawn for her.
I do too! But I always felt too that it was a bad move to make Buffy's dad a total deadbeat. I always felt like they didn't want Giles to compete with Buffy's actual dad so they made him into a total chump. I don't see why he couldn't have just been a normal dad off-screen like he was in the first two seasons. Not like Buffy's like needed some MORE tragedy.

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  TiffanyNichelle on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:28 pm

I hate that they made Buffy's dad a bad dad once Dawn came along. I guess they had to come up with something so that he couldn't have taken Dawn after Buffy's mom died or after Buffy died but while I didn't exactly love the character, since he only popped up in that one episode, I didn't really hate him either. He didn't really exist as a character but it felt cheap to have him be a bad dad.

Then again it ain't Buffy if there aren't bad father issues.

ETA hours later to fix that sentence.


Last edited by TiffanyNichelle on Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  ulkis on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:42 pm

Then again it ain't Buffy if there aren't even bad father issues.
heh. that's quite true. But I was thinking Buffy's dad was pretty much trashed around . . . oh I forget the name of the episode, her 18th birthday episode where they tried to trick us into the Giles was ev0l all of a sudden by suppressing her powers for the Watcher's test. He was supposed to take her to the icecapades and cancelled on her all so at the end Giles could be her only father figure. Like you said, it felt cheap. God forbid the relationship didn't slip nicely into one correct category (and please, no one think that I'm implying any romantic vibes should have been between them, ick). But yeah, now that you mentioned Dawn I remember they said something about him taking his secretary to Spain when they were kids or something? whateeeever, show

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:17 pm

Wasn't she supposedly living with her dad between Seasons 1 and 2?
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  katesti on Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:44 pm

Yep, she was in LA that summer, and Hank pops up in When She Was Bad, telling Joyce that Buffy was distant. Joyce points out that he compensated with shoes.

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:16 pm

That's what I thought. So when he completely disappears forever after that, it's a little abrupt. I mean, I didn't miss him or anything, but it does seem like they just wanted her to have even bigger Daddy Issues than she already had.
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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Author By Night on Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:17 am

Joss Whedon has RL Daddy Issues, I think, and a lot of his characters end up having them too because of it. Which annoys me because it's actually shocking when a character's father likes them.

And really, by the end of Buffy all the parents seem to have disappeared - not that they were ever there for Xander or Willow respectively, but is there even any mention of either trying to get their parents out of Sunnydale? Unless we should assume they just left without needing to be prodded like everyone else.

Part of me thinks they should've just ended Buffy in the third season, but given the cast more cameos in Angel. Although I think Angel got a bit OTT too after a while... this is why I'm sort of glad Firefly was canceled after one shiny season tbh. :/

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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  ulkis on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:43 pm

Part of me thinks they should've just ended Buffy in the third season, but given the cast more cameos in Angel. Although I think Angel got a bit OTT too after a while... this is why I'm sort of glad Firefly was canceled after one shiny season tbh. :/
I always think that, heh. Or that they should have repeated high school over and over again, lol, no matter how old the actors got. (Or just sent Giles and Xander to Sunnydale University with them, no matter how contrived it was. The breaking up of the gang was a bad idea and I think it made it harder for the writers to think up non stupid ways to get Giles and Xander into the action.) The whole show was based on "high school is hell". After that it just lost its compass, even though I enjoyed season 4 okay and they were a couple of brilliant episodes here and there. I always just imagine it ended there anyway for the most part. Even if it wasn't the technical end of the show it very much feels like an ending episode. It would have worked fine for a series finale as well.


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Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Post  Carrie Ann on Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:04 pm

I was talking about this awhile back w/r/t The Vampire Diaries' upcoming season: has any high school/college show drastically changed settings successfully? I usually come down on the side of thinking shows weaken when the characters are all suddenly in a new environment. The only one I can think of is FNL, which is arguably not that drastic a change.
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