The Marvel Cinematic Universe

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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  TiffanyNichelle on Fri May 01, 2015 2:55 am

I was not as satisfied with this movie as I thought I would be. There were a lot of one-liners (A LOT) but I think the first one was just a lot more fun. It was good but I think I had higher expectations.

Loved
Spoiler:
Vision. His creation was perfect. Picking up the hammer? Awesome.

I had a quibble with
Spoiler:
with Quicksilver's death. It felt cheap and unneeded (and wow, mom, way to keep hold of your kid. Also I saw a dog get on the boat. The dog got on the boat by himself. No one had to bring him, grr). Also after the recent Joss Whedon interview where he complained about Coulson's death getting overturned, Quicksilver's death felt petty. Like ha, ha, I killed this one and he's staying dead.

No one had to die to make this movie good. Instead it just annoyed me.

I knew there wasn't going to be a second post credit scene but I wanted to stay to the end because I like those "____ will return in ____" titles. However there were a LOT of people who didn't know that there wasn't a second scene and they all yelled really really loudly, lol.

and I thought Black Widow was SO OOC it was ridiculous.
I don't know if I'd call it OOC but she was so different from the more laid back Natasha from Winter Soldier. She felt a little too amped up to make things happen between
Spoiler:
her and Bruce. I don't want to call it desperate but at times I wanted her to dial it back a little with the come-ons. Then asking Fury if he was matchmaking when he sent her to get Bruce in Avengers? Huh? What?
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Snarryfan on Fri May 01, 2015 10:52 am

Saw it last night. Really liked it...but I want to see it again but not in 3D as I found that mode distracting. Two Words: James Spader. He is so good: creepy, funny, weird, and you can see him in Ultron.

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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  bookworm on Sat May 02, 2015 11:13 am

I read that they filmed some scenes with Tom Hiddleston that got cut, and I was super bummed.  During Thor's Scarlet Witch dream there was this cloaked figure, and I knew it was going to turn out to be Loki.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  RiverThames on Sat May 02, 2015 11:47 am

TiffanyNichelle wrote:I had a quibble with
Spoiler:
with Quicksilver's death. It felt cheap and unneeded (and wow, mom, way to keep hold of your kid. Also I saw a dog get on the boat. The dog got on the boat by himself. No one had to bring him, grr). Also after the recent Joss Whedon interview where he complained about Coulson's death getting overturned, Quicksilver's death felt petty. Like ha, ha, I killed this one and he's staying dead.

No one had to die to make this movie good. Instead it just annoyed me.

I did like that the whole movie was
Spoiler:
throwing big signs over Hawkeye's head, "HE'S GONNA DIE." So I liked how they subverted it, especially with the "you didn't see that coming?" back and forth between him and Quicksilver.

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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  laddical on Sat May 02, 2015 3:08 pm

So Theta Protocol from Agents of SHIELD is the New Avengers Facility, yes?
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Cynara on Sat May 02, 2015 5:14 pm

Eugene O'Neill was born right near here, so a ton of people got that one, which was awesome. However, I laughed out loud at
Spoiler:
"I will be reinstating prima nocta"
...to a silent theater.

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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  TiffanyNichelle on Sat May 02, 2015 5:33 pm

I would have laughed with you because I snorted at that line and realized that no one around me heard it and/or got it.

I guess that was the
Spoiler:
rape joke that I saw a couple of articles referencing but I didn't read because I didn't want to get spoiled.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  RiverThames on Sat May 02, 2015 6:20 pm

TiffanyNichelle wrote:I would have laughed with you because I snorted at that line and realized that no one around me heard it and/or got it.

I guess that was the
Spoiler:
rape joke that I saw a couple of articles referencing but I didn't read because I didn't want to get spoiled.

I saw more than one person online enraged about that line. Like, "Now I'm not seeing this movie" levels.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  laddical on Sat May 02, 2015 6:42 pm

To each their own. Honestly, I think the joke worked better in the original cut of the scene we saw as an Agents of SHIELD bumper back in... December or November, I want to say. When Tony says, "My rule will be strict but fair" or something along those lines.

The new line is one of the reasons I'm glad Joss is hanging up his hat. There's a bitterness and meanness in it that isn't necessary and if he stuck around to do another one I'm afraid that would become the whole movie instead of an isolated line. I'm sure Joss didn't write the line - it reads like RDJ came up with it after multiple takes. But it was Joss that chose that take in editing at any rate.

I liked the movie a lot, but I'm really hoping that Civil War is the end of the line for RDJ. I would not be averse to a recast - to me it'd be no different than a new team taking over a comic after a long-running team quits. But both he and Joss have just been silently screaming "DONE!" during this whole thing, and if they had Tony be the one who takes a bullet at the end of the movie instead of Steve, I wouldn't shed a tear. Well, I might shed a tear if the story earned the emotional beat, but I would not be sad to see RDJ leave.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Binky on Sat May 09, 2015 12:31 am

You know, Avengers 2 was not nearly as fun as Avengers 1. Whoever said it was much more gloom and doom in the vein of the most recent Batman was right.

I still enjoyed it, but...

I really hated everything about Natasha's part. The movie seemed to feel painfully conscious that she's the only lady avenger and was just downright uncomfortable with her as a character. Which is not what I associate with Whedon at all. I mean, I've often hated what Whedon has done with characters, but awkward discomfort with women is not usually his thing. I don't see how the actress being pregnant played into the shittyness of her storyline, either. It was just shitty.
Widow:
The Hulk/Widow thing was part of that shitty and uncomfortableness. I think Ruffalo and Johannson are talented, sexy people and their romance had all the chemistry of a...zucchini (I still laughed).

Also hated Hawkeye's
character reveal:
Secret wife and three kids out of the blue? Why?
.

I did like the twins, though Elizabeth Olson could work on her accent a bit.

Unlike everyone else, I still love Tony Stark and RDJ.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  laddical on Sat May 09, 2015 2:57 am

Just saw it for a second time. By this time, I'd seen the first one four times - but that is more a reflection on my lack of money than on the movie. Though if it had been as fresh and fun as the first one I might have made more of an effort.

I have to disagree with you on ScarJo and Ruffalo's chemistry. I love their scene at the bar and the way she says, "I adore you" before she shoves Bruce into a pit. I don't necessarily like the fact that the sterilization was her big reveal or the way it was handled in the scene at Hawkeye's house (which I also disagree with you on - it's frustrating that I loved Hawkeye so much this time around just as Jeremy Renner is showing his ass to the world). Part of me understands the thinking, though - Wanda was the trying to hurt her and just dredging up memories of her pre-SHIELD life isn't going to do it. Nat made her peace with the red in her ledger and is making up for it, so psychologically that's a dead end for attacking her. But take her back to her most vulnerable point, to the moment that most represents her ability to choose for herself being stripped from her, to such an extent that even deliberately failing a test wasn't a solution... yeah, I can see that shaking her up. She's confident and capable and most of all *free* now, so of course her weakness is to remind her of the grossest violation of her free will.

But, I don't think it was handled with the deftest touch and I can definitely see why it rubs some people the wrong way. I think the one thing I would have changed is dropping that, "Still think you're the only monster?" Because while it is a line that makes sense in the.context of Nat as a whole and everything's she's done, it's amazingly tone deaf in the immediate context of her inability to have children.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Binky on Sat May 09, 2015 1:32 pm

You know, I had no problem with monster line since I understood it referred to creating a person who could have all kinds of manipulative (and not necessarily consensual) sex and never risk pregnancy or maternal love interfering with getting all murdery.  

I had a problem with a superhero angsting over their fertility in the same movie as the other superheros were angsting over saving the world (or taking a magical bath, Thor, whatever). If you removed the gender and remind everyone the character is supposed to be a damn superhero, it becomes even more obvious. Tone deaf is one word to use.

(Course, the practical side of me thinks that sending said murderer into early menopause is more complicated than beneficial, and a tubal ligation would leave Natasha with the ability to have babies through earthly means, let a lone through Avengers-world means...and then I want to know why the fuck female infertility was a topic in my superhero movie.)
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  RiverThames on Sat May 09, 2015 1:34 pm

laddical wrote:But, I don't think it was handled with the deftest touch and I can definitely see why it rubs some people the wrong way. I think the one thing I would have changed is dropping that, "Still think you're the only monster?" Because while it is a line that makes sense in the.context of Nat as a whole and everything's she's done, it's amazingly tone deaf in the immediate context of her inability to have children.

Yeah. My Feminism Radar isn't all that finely tuned, but even I had a bit of a moment at that juxtaposition.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Carrie Ann on Sat May 09, 2015 1:35 pm

I was spoiled (voluntarily) on everything to do with Natasha in this one, and wasn't even sure I wanted to see it. But knowing in advance about the Bruce/Nat thing and about the clumsy sterility conversation actually helped a lot. It played okay for me, but I agree with Binky that SJ & MR had no romantic chemistry. I thought they were sweet together (that "I adore you" moment was cute), but IMO that's because they are two great actors selling the shit out of something that doesn't really work. It just seemed like a case of Joss juggling around some character arcs, and slotting those two characters into those positions, whether or not they really made any sense together. I'm not mad at it, but I have way more interest in Nat with just about every other Avenger besides Bruce, and I think SJ has more sparking chemistry with most of them as well. (And most of all with Clint, so I'll admit that shutting that down so definitively rankles a bit.) Kind of hoping that that story is dropped for CA:CW and future movies, because it's just...not there. She could do the same story with Bucky, and I'd probably find it more interesting.

Otherwise, I was very entertained. Like with the first one, I just wanted more time with everyone. Now I really, really want that 3.5 hour director's cut that we'll never get to see.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  RiverThames on Sat May 09, 2015 1:40 pm

Carrie Ann wrote:Otherwise, I was very entertained. Like with the first one, I just wanted more time with everyone. Now I really, really want that 3.5 hour director's cut that we'll never get to see.

It'll be on the Blu-ray, they say.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  laddical on Sat May 09, 2015 8:28 pm

I don't know that I'd call what Natasha did angsting - it was one scene in the larger context of her attempting to connect with Bruce, over and done in less time than it takes to read this post. And the only superhero whose mind whammy had them angsting over saving the world was Tony - Steve was thinking about never coming home from war or coming home to nothing, Thor had his confusingly chopped up prophecy that mostly hit the cutting room floor related to his ceding his responsibility as the heir to Asgard's throne, and Banner just got more Hulky than usual.

During the Seoul scene, there were a couple of times where Ultron seemed to raise the ground up just by waving at it. The first time he nearly takes Nat out on her bike, but at least there it kind of looks like he shot something first. But a few minutes later after he knocks Steve back into oncoming traffic he does it again causing several cars to flip over and this time he doesn't appear to have fired anything, just waved his hand. Wonder if he was using smaller versions of his death machine and Joss and his editor just failed to include a shot of him firing one into the ground the second time.

I think, all things considered, my biggest gripe with the film is dialogue. Which seems an odd thing to say about Whedon. But more so than even the first movie or his own shows, everyone, even Ultron and Jarvis, seemed to be speaking with the same voice. I loved Vision's off-hand "It's true, he hates you the most", but I also feel like it's a little too Tony/Jarvis and not Vision.

As the movie settles on me, though, I find myself appreciating more of it. I wasn't sure how I felt opening night, but I think that was just realizing that not everything is going to be the best ever. The one-two punch of The Winter Soldier and Guardians is a tough act to follow and Between the never ending press junket and my own tendency towards fannish excitement I had hyped myself up to a level I haven't been since The Dark Knight. So while this movie doesn't crack the top three I still liked it quite a bit. Maybe not even the Top 5... once you get past TWS, GOTG, and the first Avengers, the quality of the MCU plateaus into various shades of "good but not mind blowingly so" for me.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Cynara on Sun May 10, 2015 12:37 am

I saw it a second time and it actually held together a lot better than I thought it did the first time, and I didn't mind Black Widow's storyline that much. Something I don’t think Whedon is being given enough credit for in writing her for this movie is that there’s a lot of bitter irony in her attempted relationship with Bruce. She thinks of herself as a monster, a weapon that can only kill--but she tries to overcome that by being the one who can bring back Bruce’s humanity (and by being friends with Clint, auntie to his kids, an Avenger, etc.) And like she said, she adores his gentleness, his dorkiness, etc. But in the end, she is--just like she’s been molded to be--so solely focused on her mission that, in spite of the fact she loves him, she intentionally pushes Bruce AWAY from his humanity seconds after he told her he wants to run away together and never be the Hulk again. He deals with it--he’s letting her calm him again at the end before Ultron strafes them, and he puts her on the Helicarrier--but he leaves in the end because he knows, despite both of their best intentions, at this point they only bring out the monsters in each other.

I can’t argue that this is clearly expressed and it definitely could have been done better, and it took me a second viewing to see it. But it’s there. (I also have to say that even though it’s been several years and movies, and I liked her better in this one than any of the others, I still don’t think ScarJo is quite right for this role, in a way I can’t quantify. But whatever.)

Also, how much does Steve mean to Tony? EVERYTHING. Sorry, I’m just hopping on this train now. But, like, before I was all “shippers be crazy” and now I’m like “...but at least I see what you’re basing it on.”

I too did not need Hawkeye's Giant Spoiler. I mean, COME ON.

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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  nazlan on Sun May 10, 2015 10:47 am

Cynara wrote:
Also, how much does Steve mean to Tony? EVERYTHING. Sorry, I’m just hopping on this train now. But, like, before I was all “shippers be crazy” and now I’m like “...but at least I see what you’re basing it on.”

Of course, he also meant everything to Tony's dad, and them's some deep Oedipal waters...
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  laddical on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:52 am

So that was awesome.

Definitely Top 5 material in the Marvel canon. And OH SHIT that post credits tag. It was filmed in a different aspect ratio and the color was slightly muted so it looked completely different from the rest of the movie which made it look like it either is or was shot to look like a scene from Civil War.

But that end tag aside - the rest of the movie was hilarimazing on its own. Easily the funniest movie Marvel's done - I laughed more than I even did at Guardians.

Can't wait to see the next "solo" movie. Civil War will be great, I'm sure, but the mid-credits tag delivered something I'd wanted to see in this one but I doubt will have much, if any, impact on Avengers 2.5/Cap 3.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  RiverThames on Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:42 pm

I think it's easy to see why this is a "Phase Two" movie, as things seemed poised for Everything To Change in Civil War.  

"This is not a keychain" was my favorite bit. In no small part to West Coast Avengers era Dr. Pym being my favorite iteration of Hank Pym.  

This movie was a solid B+.  Good stuff, I enjoyed it, but there was a certain degree of Screenplay-by-the-Numbers going on.

Case in point:
Spoiler:
"Don't do X, because Y will happen, and that will kill you."
Immediately I knew:
A. Doing X is why Janet is dead.
B. That Scott would have to do X, Y would happen, but he'd find a way to beat it.

Also: as soon as Scott named Antony, I knew that ant was going to die.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Ji Xiang on Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:17 pm

Yes, the exact same for me to your spoiler'd comments!
But still enjoyable :-). Now I just need to rewatch since I missed the opening scenes :-(

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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  RiverThames on Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:49 pm

I do have one Big Nitpick, from a writing/structure perspective. It's not a HUGE deal but in the scene it really knocked me out of it.

Spoiler:
After stealing the suit, the scene where Scott tries it on in the bathroom feels INCREDIBLY unmotivated. Like, after he gets in the safe, and sees the suit, he's all "WTF, there's just some motorcycle suit in here." We don't even see explicitly that he took it. Next he's in the bathroom trying it on. So it really felt to me like the movie was going, "This is the scene where Scott tries on the suit and shrinks for the first time" without giving him a really good reason to. I presume that an earlier draft of the script had a different path to that scene, so the idea that he's going to try it on and press buttons at random makes more sense.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  Cynara on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:55 pm

Michael Pena was really a standout, too. And I enjoyed the little girl--she delivered her lines really well and wasn't cloying at all.

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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  laddical on Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:17 pm

RiverThames wrote:I do have one Big Nitpick, from a writing/structure perspective.  It's not a HUGE deal but in the scene it really knocked me out of it.

Spoiler:
After stealing the suit, the scene where Scott tries it on in the bathroom feels INCREDIBLY unmotivated.  Like, after he gets in the safe, and sees the suit, he's all "WTF, there's just some motorcycle suit in here."  We don't even see explicitly that he took it. Next he's in the bathroom trying it on.  So it really felt to me like the movie was going, "This is the scene where Scott tries on the suit and shrinks for the first time" without giving him a really good reason to.  I presume that an earlier draft of the script had a different path to that scene, so the idea that he's going to try it on and press buttons at random makes more sense.  

It's been two weekends and this is fairly early in the film, so I'm replying without spoilers.

Scott notices the wiring on the suit and the Pym Particles before he tries it on, and I think it even shows him looking at the components with his electrician's toolkit before he actually puts it on. It's not quite motivation to actually put the suit on, but at least you see his curiosity being piqued by some weird stuff and it's not just that he decides to put on some random dude's biker gear.
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Post  RiverThames on Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:37 pm

laddical wrote:
RiverThames wrote:I do have one Big Nitpick, from a writing/structure perspective.  It's not a HUGE deal but in the scene it really knocked me out of it.

Spoiler:
After stealing the suit, the scene where Scott tries it on in the bathroom feels INCREDIBLY unmotivated.  Like, after he gets in the safe, and sees the suit, he's all "WTF, there's just some motorcycle suit in here."  We don't even see explicitly that he took it. Next he's in the bathroom trying it on.  So it really felt to me like the movie was going, "This is the scene where Scott tries on the suit and shrinks for the first time" without giving him a really good reason to.  I presume that an earlier draft of the script had a different path to that scene, so the idea that he's going to try it on and press buttons at random makes more sense.  

It's been two weekends and this is fairly early in the film, so I'm replying without spoilers.

Scott notices the wiring on the suit and the Pym Particles before he tries it on, and I think it even shows him looking at the components with his electrician's toolkit before he actually puts it on. It's not quite motivation to actually put the suit on, but at least you see his curiosity being piqued by some weird stuff and it's not just that he decides to put on some random dude's biker gear.

It is a bit odd. I imagine, in an early draft, Scott had a vague idea what he was going for-- a supersuit of some sort-- so in having it, he decided to test it. But I think that bit got re-written, but this scene hung on (because, you know, he does still need to try it on for the rest of the movie to happen.)
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Re: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

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