Sleepy Hollow

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Post  Carrie Ann on Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:29 pm

Well, the necklace was glowing, so it looks like there's a glamour on Evil Baby Moloch making it appear all cute and snuggly to her. But if she goes over to Team Moloch for real, I want her to go there on her own; preferably because she was a little evil all along. I'd really rather not have the story be that she was forcibly impregnated with Evil Spawn (again), and then became attached to it (again), and now she can't act rationally. AGAIN, some more. I already hate that story w/r/t Henry; don't need to see it in duplicate.
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Post  sagitare on Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:34 pm

dionneshea wrote:But a serious question about Katrina - at the end of the last episode, when she returns to Headless, Henry, and Baby Moloch, I got the impression that she was turning to their side because of the connection that she felt with the baby. Did I totally miss the boat on that? (It's possible - I was pretty bored by the end there and my attention was waning.) Because, if that's the case, that would be an interesting way to take the character and get her out of the way. Make her evil and take her out.
No, I think that's the angle they were going for in the episode for sure, with her earlier comments about what it meant to carry a baby, how connected you remain to a child after it's no longer physically a part of you (and on that note, I read recently - could have been here! - about how the writers could have explored a post-partum depression angle with Katrina on this, which would have been interesting, imo).

I was re-watching the episode yesterday and, speaking of Katrina not having any agency, I found it extremely annoying the way Ichabod treated her like she was a tiny, fragile little thing. The slightest indication that she felt ill and he'd be right there touching her face, cooing to her about how he pushed her before she wasn't ready, escorting her off to 'have some rest' - sorry, Ichabod, is she powerful or not? Of course, it's not like she told him to piss off or anything as she lets herself be handled and led around. It's just...she's a damned grown woman who, at the very least, carried and birthed a baby, and was able to pull off a spell that kept Ichabod around for two hundred years. Treat her as such, for goodness sake.

About the corset thing: I figured they kept her in it because it was the easiest visual clue to use when the succubus was confronting Ichabod (much like they had her dressed like Abbie when Hawley was the target) and they wanted to make the point that his deepest desire was Katrina (AND TOTALLY NOT ABBIE, YOU GUYS, SERIOUSLY! KATRINA AND ICHABOD 4EVAH!).

ETA: Also - after the last episode, I had to ask: what was the *point* of the episode before that? We go through the whole bit with finding the crystal-thingy, it looks like it worked, but then we have Abbie this week hand-waving the whole thing away by saying something like the crystal caused the baby to get moved or shunted off somewhere else (I couldn't actually make out exactly what she was saying). I mean, what? That could have been worked into the episode in some way (for once Franklin was WRONG! Happy days for Ichabod!) - hell, have a two-parter and carry it over to this past episode. Otherwise you just negated forty-five minutes of story.


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Post  Corvus on Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:51 pm

My ideal model for 'partnership' is from a bygone age: John Steed and Emma Peel. No one cared if they boinked, we cared that they saved the world. (The actors assumed they had, theng queue, shrugged, and got on with saving the world.) So when the Demon Apoxyclips is nigh, I don't care which of the sane (or at least on release), of-consenting-age (in the Crane's case, by a lot) Sleepy Hollow citizens have sex. I didn't much care if Scully and Mulder had sex or not, I don't care if Constantine and his new friend do or don't, I don't care if Sam and De-- oh, wait. If that is the primary thrust (so to speak) of the show, then it explains where all the afternoon soap operas have gone. Some interpersonal relationships are important to the story, but honestly, writers. At least Buffy and Co had the excuse of being high schoolers.

I wouldn't mind if Katrina isn't able to stand on the pedestal Ichabod puts her on. It may be a bit '500 Day of Katrina' but that would be a legitimate character story to explore. I know love is blind, but Abbie and Hawley? After Joe Corbin, he just looks sad.
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Post  Instant Monkeys on Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:07 am

DUDES. I swear I didn't read this article before writing my ranty post today. This lady and I are soulmates, clearly.
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Post  Raised by wolves on Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:56 am

In addition to all the problems mentioned, (especially Katrina) I really don't like how this season has turned into a monster of the week show. Henry makes a monster, Team Witness foils that monster, next week Henry makes another monster. There are two horsemen of the apocalypse in the show. One just makes monsters that are foiled in 42 minutes and the other does nothing except moon over Katrina. Shouldn't they be the big bads who actually do bad things?

Plus I'm sick of Team Witness always being on the defensive. How about a little offense? Like getting Irving out of the psych ward or actually harming War/Death so the good guys actually do some good and the bad guys get set back in a way more than Henry just having to conjure ANOTHER F'ING MONSTER. The whole apocalypse plot is lather rinse repeat.

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Post  Coneycat on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:29 am

I'm not as invested in the show as some of you, so I'm not as pissed off as some of you. (For which I give daily thanks: a few years ago something I really liked went down in flames of terrible character writing, dubious motivation, and WTF plotting. It was infuriating. I have never, ever forgiven the writing team who did it... and this fall, I have too many things going on in real life to get all wound up about fiction right now.)

All of which is just to say, I'm not angry about this season, but that might be just because I'm not letting myself think about it too hard. With that said:

Okay-- I thought pining Ichabod was sweet last season. And I actually kind of like Katrina. The problem is, in a show with a limited cast they can't really have her kicking ass just like Abbie, but they haven't found anything else for her to do. She could have been a super-spy in Purgatory, which was where all the cool kids were last season anyway. This season, she could have manipulated Headless and Henry from the cabin of evil in the woods. (Is it just me who thinks it's kind of hilarious that everyone knows where the other side has their clubhouse, and they just sort of don't attack it for no discernible reason?) As has been noted more than once, if she's such a powerful witch she ought to be able to show it.

Now, in this latest episode (which I kind of enjoyed) we see Katrina, early on, demonstrating useful bits of knowledge. That would be a Thing For Her To Do. Except--

Except that's Poochie's, I mean Hawley's, Thing. Which used to be Jenny's Thing, when Jenny HAD A FRIGGING ROLE IN THE STORY. I liked Hawley on first introduction, when I thought he'd show up a few times a season, annoy Crane, and help save the day. One thing I really am pissed off about is the way Jenny's role has been handed off to Generic White Dude. There's plenty more they can do with the sisters' relationship, but it looks like they're planning to have whatever either of them feels about Hawley to become some sort of important point of reference between the two. Do I care? I do not. They have a war to win.

Also, whatever they're setting up with Orlando Jones needs to fucking start paying off, and soon, because I'm pretty sick of seeing him for three minutes every third episode. And after the actor became such a fun ambassador for the show, too.

*sigh* Yeah, I'm not pissed off until I start thinking about it.

Seriously, Show, it's not hard. Just make Hawley a minor supporting character like he should be, bring back Jenny (as far as I can tell, Lyndie Greenwood isn't even off filming something else, so there is just no excuse) and Irving as major characters, make Katrina either evil or useful, and do something about those other two Horsemen of the Apocalypse, okay?


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Post  blixie on Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:28 am

There are two horsemen of the apocalypse in the show.

Yeah I think this is what bothers me in the rote plot sense. I really wish Henry wasn't Jeremy, or IF he had to be Jeremy than he should have been just like Andy: minion of Moloch, not an actual Horseman. As it stands he's essentially Dr. Shrinker, every week concocting a plan that is foiled by the heroes, which he then claims was all part of his BIGGER plan. Hahahahaha. Of all the characters who SHOULD have remained mysterious and unknowable, it should have been the Horseman, neither needed fucking pathos, and worse *backstories*.

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Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:48 am

Speaking of that, Orlando Jones is still not effing around.
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Post  big chicken on Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:29 pm

Plus I'm sick of Team Witness always being on the defensive. How about a little offense? Like getting Irving out of the psych ward or actually harming War/Death so the good guys actually do some good and the bad guys get set back in a way more than Henry just having to conjure ANOTHER F'ING MONSTER. The whole apocalypse plot is lather rinse repeat.

Katrina's role on Team Witness should be reviving her coven so they can freeze Henry's heart again and take him out of the picture. Team Witness could then focus on defeating Death. Death, meanwhile, goes on a killing spree now that his days aren't filled with wooing Katrina with cups of tea and poetry.

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Post  Grainne Mhaol on Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:30 am

Really liked this episode as it gave Misses Abbie and Jenny the spotlight, for once in a long, dark time. The acting was superb from both of them, and I was glad to finally get some insight into their childhood, instead of endless Cranepain.

Hawley was ever a waste of space, leaving Crane as the spare tyre of the group (which, well, he could stand to be put in the background for a while). Do not like the forced banter between Hawley and Abbie, but I appreciate the looks of jealousy and disapproval from Ichabod. Stew, man, you deserve to suffer after the last couple of weeks.

I'm not liking the distance between my babies at present. It feels so unnecessary and instantly kills half of the show's charm. The showrunners' decision to try to cause tension between them by slinging Hawley and unnecessary Katrina into the mix continues to baffle me as it deprives the audience of one of the show's primary selling points which is the electric chemistry between the leads. (Do I have to keep saying this? Apparently so. Writers, pay attention.)

However, it looks like Team Witness is back together, and Irving finally got tired of waiting for a jailbreak, so yay! Could the show be finally back on track?
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Post  Shalamar on Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:10 pm

Ichabod surreptitiously swigging from the container of soup was priceless.

I really liked this episode - except, as noted above, for the lack of Ichabod/Abbie scenes. Was it Tom Mison's week off?
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Post  Instant Monkeys on Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:22 pm

Finally! Much better. (I did miss Ichabod. Hawley continues not to be necessary. How did he help besides bring soup and then stand around next to everybody?)

During the last part as they were saying goodbye to their mother, in the immortal words of Dennis Duffy, I cried like a big dumb homo. Haven't felt especially emotional as regards this show since Ichabod freaking out over Abbie almost drowning. So that's a good thing. Fantastic acting all around there.

Very glad that Frank is finally out of the goddamn asylum. NOT GLAD THAT KATRINA IS STILL WEARING THE DUMB CORSET WHYYYYY. (This picture makes the whole Katrina/demon baby situation so much less annoying though. It's so much harder for me to hate on characters when the actors playing them seem like good sports.)
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Post  big chicken on Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:38 pm

I'd really like to know how magic works on this show. Can anyone do magic if they have the proper education (or can pronounced the words of a spell) or is it something passed along bloodlines like in the Potterverse?  I was thinking it was the latter because of Jenny and Abbie until I remember Ichabod also has done  of magic.  Jenny, Abbie, and Ichabod's magic has been more impressive to me than anything Katrina has done in the present day.

Yay! to fugitive Irving. I'm having trouble buying that Irving has truly lost his soul.  I think you have to give explicit consent for that to happen otherwise evil can just go around taking souls and tricking people out of their soul and it'd be a lot easier to take over the world.

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Post  dionneshea on Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:11 pm

big chicken wrote:I'd really like to know how magic works on this show. Can anyone do magic if they have the proper education (or can pronounced the words of a spell) or is it something passed along bloodlines like in the Potterverse?  I was thinking it was the latter because of Jenny and Abbie until I remember Ichabod also has done  of magic.  Jenny, Abbie, and Ichabod's magic has been more impressive to me than anything Katrina has done in the present day.

Yay! to fugitive Irving. I'm having trouble buying that Irving has truly lost his soul.  I think you have to give explicit consent for that to happen otherwise evil can just go around taking souls and tricking people out of their soul and it'd be a lot easier to take over the world.
I was coming here to post basically all of that. So, yes, what Big Chicken said.

It was nice to finally enjoy an episode again. I could have done without Hawley, but I loved the focus on the Mills sisters and seeing Captain Irving again. I love Captain Irving. Oh, and I thought Cynthia Stevenson was perfect for the role of the creepy nurse.
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Post  Carrie Ann on Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:15 pm

Some of that episode got a little over the top and cheesy for me, and particularly the climactic scene with Abbie tied to the chair, but I don't particularly care because of Jenny. And Abbie and Jenny. And their mom, and the tears.

I found Hawley's role in the episode sort of weird. It seems like the only reason to make Ichabod sick and Hawley take up what would have been his place would be to show him playing off of the sisters, see sparks fly with one or both, people feeling feelings, etc. But I saw absolutely ZERO chemistry with either pair, and I have actually seen it in the past with both, so it seems like a wasted moment, if that was the intent. I mean, I definitely got that he was concerned about Abbie, with his "MILLS!!!" screaming every few minutes, but their actual interactions were nothing. Ditto Jenny. Shrugs.

On the other hand, I can't believe how relieved and elated I felt when Irving came out into the road and hopped into the trunk. Yes, please, please let him stay free.

Moloch question: if Moloch is currently in the body of this pre-teen, he couldn't also be messing with things elsewhere, right? I see people concerned about Irving's escape being manipulated by Moloch, and I'm confused. If he can be everywhere all at once, while also in this corporeal body, then I just don't understand the point of any of this. That could be the slogan of the whole season, TBH.
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Post  sagitare on Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:49 pm

Carrie Ann wrote:I found Hawley's role in the episode sort of weird. It seems like the only reason to make Ichabod sick and Hawley take up what would have been his place would be to show him playing off of the sisters, see sparks fly with one or both, people feeling feelings, etc. But I saw absolutely ZERO chemistry with either pair, and I have actually seen it in the past with both, so it seems like a wasted moment, if that was the intent. I mean, I definitely got that he was concerned about Abbie, with his "MILLS!!!" screaming every few minutes, but their actual interactions were nothing. Ditto Jenny. Shrugs.
What really struck me as very off was the fact that he so clearly did not belong in such a personal situation. Of all the episode plots to try and engineer that sort of reaction with either of the sisters, one that involved their childhood and their mother wouldn't even make the list. We know by now that Abbie keeps that part of herself very, very close - when he came into the archive as she was watching one of the videos, she very quickly shut the laptop so he wouldn't see it. Crane is the one both sisters have let into this part of their lives and so the scenes in the hospital just stood out as being wrong because of Hawley; I kept thinking it should have been Crane there. Hawley hasn't remotely earned the right to know something that intimate about either sister, and neither of them would have trusted him with that information regardless in any other situation.

The thing with Hawley is that it's not even a question of no chemistry: Abbie very, very clearly is not interested in him. It just makes this whole attempt to drum up some kind of love triangle even more hilarious.

Speaking of relationships (and a fun comparison between the two dudes) - I loved at the end when Crane says something to the effect of the legacy left by Lori Mills but he's moving slowly towards Abbie and is just laser-eyed focused on her because she's so emotional at this point. He's 1000% tuned in to what's happening with her and there for her at that moment. Hawley can run around yelling her name all he wants, but he's eating Crane's dust at this point.
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Post  Shalamar on Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:23 pm

Someone on Reddit summed up part of my frustration with Katrina:

Katrina: Whatever you want from me, I assure you I will not cooperate.
Henry: Hold this baby. Totally not a demon or anything.
Katrina: 'Kay.
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Post  Grainne Mhaol on Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:29 pm

I have nothing of note to add, except squee!
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Post  blixie on Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:49 pm

Maybe it's unfair to judge last night's episode since it was cut into approximately 15 times in an hour to go live on the Ferguson verdict (and oh the Irony of that), but I was seriously so ANGRY when Katrina showed up in that mirror imma have to tap out.

"I have failed my mission.'' Bitch, when do you ever succeed. And honestly, making Ichabod her fool is making me hate him. Someone made an excellent point this show about the mother effing apocolypse, just had the Horseman of Death and it's lead Hero fight over a useless sack of Fiera died damsel. Because your audience loves Katrina that fucking much that they want to see two guys fight over her. UGH.

At least I got some Jenny/Irving goodness last night, but eh, until Katrina and her biggest fan behind the scenes Goffman are gone I just don't see the show being what I want to watch. Nikki Beharie deserves better than this.

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Post  Grainne Mhaol on Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:00 pm

I enjoyed the episode - in some ways it felt like vintage season one, loopy history, a showdown with Headless, sword-fighting (yay!), a cool monster and thankfully some humour, a blessed relief after the last few weeks. Also, we got what I wanted to see for weeks now, Abbie and Ichabod working together without the interference of that horrid shrew (I'm done pulling punches - Katrina must die). I basically watch to see Mison and Beharie interact onscreen these days, but it's almost as if they've been actively trying to tone down their outrageous chemistry this season. The few moments of Ichabbie sweetness made me think that all might not be lost.

However, it was hard to ignore the stench of She-who-ruins-everything (and if this disheartening interview with Goffman is to be believed, we're only going to get more of her, which is just brilliant).

Also, I really don't know who Orlando Jones pissed off to get stuck with this dead-end storyline. It's hard not to be paranoid and think that his outspoken enthusiasm for Ichabbie annoyed the notoriously shipper-phobic showrunners. That's my insane theory, and I'm sticking with it.
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Post  Coneycat on Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:05 pm

Personally, I don't mind Katrina. I admit to spending last night giving thanks that Poochie wasn't everywhere we turned (seriously, can Hawley please just die heroically or something?) And Jenny and Irving had better be integral to next week's episode or I am going to be very pissed off.

Apart from those two being sidelines I enjoyed the episode.

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Post  sagitare on Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:05 pm

Coneycat wrote:Personally, I don't mind Katrina. I admit to spending last night giving thanks that Poochie wasn't everywhere we turned (seriously, can Hawley please just die heroically or something?)
You may be getting your wish (next week, perhaps?) as the actor has been cast in a pilot for another show.
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Post  Coneycat on Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:12 pm

sagitare wrote:
Coneycat wrote:Personally, I don't mind Katrina. I admit to spending last night giving thanks that Poochie wasn't everywhere we turned (seriously, can Hawley please just die heroically or something?)
You may be getting your wish (next week, perhaps?) as the actor has been cast in a pilot for another show.

Good! I hope it's picked up and I will watch it faithfully--I like the actor! I was sorry when he died horribly in Harper's Island! (Not surprised, but sorry!) I just think the character dilutes the roles of characters I like better in this show!

(Edit: Also, I see the linked article refers to a "season long arc." Heroic death, here we come?)

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Post  Grainne Mhaol on Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:04 pm

The fall finale trailer makes me cautiously optimistic, because, hell yeah, Irving's back in action with a sword, lots of Ichabbie touchy-feely moments and finally a pay-off for Henry's model-building exploits that were set up earlier in the season.

The trailer gives me season one finale flashbacks, so I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed that the show might be getting its mojo back. If the Kindred shows up to the party, then I'll be one happy bunny.

Coneycat wrote:(Edit: Also, I see the linked article refers to a "season long arc." Heroic death, here we come?)

I'm more than happy to see Hawley give up his life to help the cause. This trailer says: 'Someone must fall', which worries me, because if anyone on the side of Team Witness dies (other than Hawley or Princess Peach), then I'm officially done. I mean it this time.
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Post  big chicken on Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:18 pm

I hope Franklinstein's monster returns for the winter finale. I thought we'd see more of him after he was activated but he ran off never to be seen again.

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