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Post  biakbiak Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:41 pm

Some of it was people acting out for the sake of acting out but I also think some of it was displaced anger at someone they'd looked up to. I imagine it's similar to finding out an adored parent had an affair. They feel betrayed. They're angry they were deceived and that a man they admired isn't who they thought he was.

But that doesn't seem to be the reason for it. They didn't feel betrayed by Paterno, they were pissed that Paterno was fired. They were shouting "Hell, no Joe won't go!" and "We want Joe Back!"
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Post  big chicken Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:43 pm

I was working on adding more to my post when you posted, blixie, but it'd make more sense to finish it here. I think some of those students don't want to believe they were wrong about Paterno so they'd rather think Paterno is a scapegoat or a victim of a witch hunt.

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Post  blixie Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:59 pm

Ah, I figured that's what you might of meant, but I'm still not convinced the psychology of it runs that deep. Kids on campus are often buried up to their eyeballs in school work, football, dating, and partying I would doubt many of them have interrogated the details, and all they know is Sandusky is the guilty one and Jo Pa "did his job" by reporting it to Curley.

Hell on Monday morning when all I had heard was sex scandal and Penn State and What did Jo Pa know, without actually reading anything my first instinct was to hold on to Jo Pa not knowing in the same way anyone wouldn't want to know this, not as plausible deniability, but as I do not want to know THAT.

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Post  Binky Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:08 pm

blixie wrote:Kids on campus are often buried up to their eyeballs in school work, football, dating, and partying I would doubt many of them have interrogated the details, and all they know is Sandusky is the guilty one and Jo Pa "did his job" by reporting it to Curley.

This. Also, I went to a similarly-sized school with a rioting reputation, and as a result there was a segment of the population (in the thousands, probably) which wanted to riot constantly, even if the only reason was "X days since last riot". So, I would hazard a guess that some of the students out there were there to rabble and tip over a news truck, and didn't particularly care why. And then another couple hundred showed up to watch those students.

I also bet that the media focus on Jo Pa (who 'did his job' and didn't do anything criminal) instead of the child molester is angering some, who don't have the perspective to understand that that 'doing nothing' is the issue. I hope Penn State faculty assign the grand jury report to their classes. It is short, clinical, and easily digestible for a college student. And it's graphic and horrifyingly enlightening about the situation.

Lastly, it can be deeply hurtful to have something that you identify with plastered on the media negatively. A murder occurred in my department a few years ago, and it was very upsetting to read the news articles, which weren't inaccurate but also weren't particularly sensitive. And the media who were present on campus were aggressive, insensitive, and infuriating. So, I have a little sympathy in that regard.
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Post  PrincessCleo Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:48 pm

I went to a school (a liberal arts college, even) that produced a trio of recreational church-burners about ten years after I'd graduated. They were the kind of guys who decided at one point, "I guess we better burn some white churches too, so no one thinks it's racist." So yeah, it sucks to read about something awful in the paper and go, "Oh, shit, THAT'S MY SCHOOL!" (At the same time, the administration didn't sweep it under the rug and go, "But we're really Methodist and stuff! Church burnings? Nothing to see here!") So, I mean, I have some sympathy for the students and alumni and Penn State fans trying to process the horror.

On the other hand... don't read the comments of any news article on this, ever. I'm seeing all of this "Jo Pa didn't know! He's the real victim!" stuff from people who obviously haven't read any further than a headline ASHTON, but someone was also saying that a bunch of NAMBLA types showed up on a Huffington Post article, claiming that nothing Sandusky did was wrong anyway.
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Post  truecrystal Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:56 pm

So what about McQueary? Has there been a reason put forth by the board of trustees as to why he still has a job? Or at the very least, why he hasn't been put on "administrative leave" until the school has completed their investigation? I've heard a lot of speculation, but to my knowledge, there hasn't been a formal statement yet.

I keep thinking there must be a legal reason they haven't fired him, but the closest thing I can think of is some sort of warped interpretation of a whistle blower policy.

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Post  Binky Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:18 pm

truecrystal wrote:

I keep thinking there must be a legal reason they haven't fired him, but the closest thing I can think of is some sort of warped interpretation of a whistle blower policy.

That's exactly what I've seen theorized. He'd be getting fired for reporting rape to 3 superiors.

Now, the reality is probably that he saw Sandusky raping that child after years of vaguely knowing that Sandusky was a creeper for children and the following meeting was largely about how Sandusky needed to be more discreet.
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Post  year of the cat Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:28 am

A lot of Penn St. fans have been in denial, but folks, when the Attn General and Gov. are behind the wheels of an investigation, this is not even just about the victims, the crimes, or the body count. These guys weren't just failing to report, they were burying leads and obstructing justice. They are accessories after the fact. JoePa was a coach, but his real degree is in law.
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Post  jstilwe Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:56 am

I don't believe he ever got the law degree, actually, but your point is taken. It's just depressing. In addition to the utterly heinous nature of the crimes, you have a guy who in every other aspect of his life has seemingly been an example of honorable conduct, and then to drop the ball so horribly -- it's honestly heartbreaking.

I can't stop thinking about that poor kid that McQueary saw. The grand jury still doesn't know who that kid is. That is unfathomable to me. I really hope he comes forward and sues the everliving shit out of all concerned.

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Post  The Dude Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:00 am

I went to Colorado, so I can tell you a thing or two about collective shame thanks to athletes and faculty.

As a Buff fan, I still hate Nebraska.
Nebraska season-ticket holder Jeff "Rocky" Sisel of Arlington, Va., who travels the country following the Huskers, said safety concerns won't stop him from attending the game.

He said he was at the Huskers' previous game at Penn State, a 40-7 loss in 2002, and he and other Nebraska fans were treated rudely. Sisel said Nittany Lions fans had a vendetta against the Huskers, who were voted national champion over unbeaten Penn State in 1994.

Sisel said he will go with four or five friends to Saturday's game. He's considered renting a car for the trip because he's worried his own vehicle will be targeted for vandalism.

"I wouldn't have thought about it otherwise, but I'm worried about the spirit and the feeling that these students are having," Sisel said. "Are they going to take it out on Nebraska people?
Yeah it's all about you!

I'm sure no one gets this either, but if they even just suspected Sandusky, how do you let him have free reign in your deparment?
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Post  maxell131313 Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:45 pm

The AP is reporting that McQueary is being put on administrative leave until further notice.
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Post  TiffanyNichelle Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:36 pm

How does he even still have a job?
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Post  Binky Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:05 pm

TiffanyNichelle wrote:How does he even still have a job?

His job is protected by whistleblower laws. He's the only one that didn't lie to the grand jury/administration about what he saw. His honesty about not stopping the rape bizarrely enough makes him a whistleblower.

That said, he is Gone, in protective custody after death threats. I wonder: death threats over failure to save the 10 year old, or death threats for telling the truth about it now?
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Post  nazlan Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:12 pm

Binky wrote:
TiffanyNichelle wrote:How does he even still have a job?

His job is protected by whistleblower laws. He's the only one that didn't lie to the grand jury/administration about what he saw. His honesty about not stopping the rape bizarrely enough makes him a whistleblower.

That said, he is Gone, in protective custody after death threats. I wonder: death threats over failure to save the 10 year old, or death threats for telling the truth about it now?

Probably both, sadly. He's catching a lot of flack from both sides.
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Post  year of the cat Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:36 pm

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Post  biakbiak Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:47 am

There was a blog at SFGate that had the same analogy. What I don't like about it the analogy, though I realize is needed for the literary analogy but it wasn't "the one child;" hell it wasn't even the eight! No one starts with the first time there were caught, no one starts at 52 plus years of age.

And the thing that haunts this story is that it's both. No one knows the number of children raped and molested by this man and know one knows the identity of the "one," the ten year old who was raped in the showers. Who is now a young man who is unlikely to have had therapy/support because he was already most likely an at risk youth and the person who committed that heinous crime was a respected member of society. Statics show he could easily be molesting others/dead from suicide/doing drugs or countless other horrific paths. I wish deep within that somehow even though all these men at Penn State deserted him, someone reached out.
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Post  laddical Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:35 am

My problem with the analogy is that in the story, we are told plainly and simply that if the child is saved, disaster will befall every single other person in the city, and so we have an ethical crisis.

In the real world, if the child had been saved, Sandusky's life would have been ruined and his charity dissolved but those probably weren't the foremost concerns in the minds of the Penn State employees who failed to act. They were thinking of the university and the football program and the disaster that would befall those two were their primary motivations. But at worst, Penn State would have been subjected to some uncomfortable scrutiny and some off-color jokes but the university and the football program would have survived. So unlike Omelas, where we have Word of God to promise us that protecting the innocent would doom everyone, in the Sandusky case that ethical crisis simply isn't there.
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Post  biakbiak Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:56 am

They were thinking of the university and the football program and the disaster that would befall those two were their primary motivations.

Of course they were, but in the analogy the world of Happy Valley was a utopia compared to other big football schools, and at the time of the first currently reported incident Sandusky had been a coach at Penn State for 32 years at that point, 21 years of his charity, I imagine there will be countless boys who are now men coming forward because it didn't start in 98 or 2002 and those that covered it up knew that.

While many thought it glossed over the victims, I thought Growing Up Penn State highlighted how so many people valued Happy Valley and all the ideals they thought it stood for.

And in the story of the Omelas no one knows what happens to the people who walk away; perhaps they go to a land of even more riches or are able to really enjoy it because they didn't have to live with the choice.

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Post  The Dude Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:23 am

What I don't get about McQ is this is WAY more than "there's something off about this situation" with the incident he witnessed. A grown man showering with a adolescent boy?! How the hell do you not even put a stop to that at the time? It's not as if you are going to get shot.

As a side bar, I have no idea why school locker rooms haven't made shower stalls manditory.
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Post  jstilwe Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:29 am

Except he didn't see them showering together, which would have been incredibly weird but I could maybe see him somehow justifying why he didn't break it up. He saw him raping the boy and fully understood it to rape, according to his grand jury testimony. No theory I have heard yet excuses the fact that he turned around and walked away.

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Post  The Dude Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:38 am

jstilwe wrote:Except he didn't see them showering together, which would have been incredibly weird but I could maybe see him somehow justifying why he didn't break it up. He saw him raping the boy and fully understood it to rape, according to his grand jury testimony. No theory I have heard yet excuses the fact that he turned around and walked away.
I'm saying even if he just saw something out of the corner of his eye. There's no way Sandusky should have had that kid where he did.
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Post  Kookla Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:32 pm

I know this comment doesn't relate to football, but it is incidents like this that make me understand why in my profession, where I live, if you even have reasonable grounds to *suspect* child abuse, you yourself are under strict obligation to call child services/the police that same day, or you personally could be sued. It makes those days when I have had to drop everything to fulfill my moral and professional obligation make complete sense (including the day I heard a kid talking about his mother beating him at home, which was the same day I had to get to an academic banquet I had planned for 300 people. I still called it in.) And that's just what the law requires me to do. In this situation, which is so much more horrific, the insane thing is that no one's moral compass seemed to tell them to do anything at all.

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Post  blixie Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:36 pm

And that's just what the law requires me to do.

Apparently PA is one of only six states that don't require the same from the likes of McQueary/Paterno et al.

No theory I have heard yet excuses the fact that he turned around and walked away.

I don't know if the theories of how/why he walked away are an attempt to excuse him only to understand a particularly horrible bit of human behavior, and how common it is given this particular issue. This enduring culture of silence or more accurately culture of cowardice that leads those who know not to do anything to intervene and stop it.

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Post  The Dude Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:11 am

I read that report and how the hell McQ didn't stop what was going on is just beyond me. All it took in that other incident was the gym teacher opening the door for Sandusky to jump up and say "we we're just wrestling".
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Post  year of the cat Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:29 am

He expected to break up something, the testimony he gave was that (ugh) he knew what the sound was, from out in the hall. He went in there, to run off somebody having sex in the locker room. And then he sees what it really is (rape) and runs off himself?
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