Podcasts and iTunesU

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  mokey75 on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:31 am

This morning's episode was also great. I'll spoiler it, since it just came out.
Spoiler:
The story Jay told Chris (?) about Adnan coming to find him at the pool hall makes the most sense out of anything we've heard so far. I never bought that he murdered her in the Best Buy parking lot. I know they timed it out, but it left very little room for error. It was much more likely, IMO, that she was killed closer to school. Killing her by the library also gives credence to Asia having seen him there that afternoon. Plus, I could never figure out why someone who murdered someone would throw them in the trunk and then sit around in a parking lot waiting for someone else to show up in broad daylight. I mean, obviously I've never been in that situation, but I have to imagine you would want to MOVE, you know?
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  blixie on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:59 am

See I found that story to be more evidence that Jay is completely full of shit and couldn't tell the actual truth if you paid him, which in point of fact the Prosecution did do with the deal. I find it interesting that people are so convinced Adnan is a charming sociopath, when Jay has a friend who like him even though he totes tried to stab them, ya know for a GOOF. And that people liked him so much even though he lied constantly about trivial shit. In my very personal experience, if people will lie about trivial shit they will absolutely lie about the BIG stuff, like the fact they committed a murder. And that goes for Adnan too, but with him there is no narrative of a pattern of behavior where he's an occasionally scary habitual liar.

This was actually the least interesting episode for me, because at the end, I feel it didn't amount to a hill of beans in terms of Jay and The Truth. The only important thing I learned was that the jurors never heard Jay's testimony was in exchange for an incredibly sweet deal, that he didn't serve a day of time, and that they admitted they defied their instructions and held Adnan's lack of testifying against him.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:12 pm

I think Jay did this whole thing and Jen was his cover, although he may have lied to her too in order to get her to cover for him on what she thought was a small thing. I don't know his motivation, but I wondered if it had something to do with Stephanie. Like Hae knew that Jay was cheating on her or something. I mean, if you turned this whole case around, and the cops had gone after Jay the way they went after Adnan, you'd have at least as much against him as you have against Adnan. More, actually, because in truth, Jay is the person who told them all the details about where the car was, etc. Plus he had the criminal record, which shouldn't matter, but in terms of getting a conviction, Jay is a much more convincing suspect to me than Adnan. The only thing in Adnan's case is his "motive" as her ex-boyfriend.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Morning Angel on Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:22 pm

Oddly enough, I think this episode had me going the other way. I was undecided but was sort of assuming that Adnan was innocent, and was unconvinced by what we heard about Jay's testimony, but Jay does seem like he gave a fairly solid testimony. Now, he may just be a very experienced liar & I don't buy the part that Jay would have been threatened by Adnan, which is why he went along with him, but I'm also not certain why Jay would have implicated himself in the crime, if he did do it.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  blixie on Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:32 pm

An interesting point about "motive": it's not required for Murder 1, and since Foxcatcher is coming out it's perfect example of that: John DuPont had NO motive for murdering Dave Schultz.

I find people are unreasonably hung up on motive, and the prosecutions motive for Adnan is more about statistical probability (women killed by IPV, ex IPV and I admit that is compelling) than it is about specific evidence/testimony re: Adnan. But Jay's hypothetical motive, Stephanie finding out he was cheating, is also compelling and believable especially after all those people said how much he treasured her.

I'm also not certain why Jay would have implicated himself in the crime, if he did do it.

Because he was worried they'd find physical evidence of him on Hae, in her car, at the grave. By admitting he helped bury her and had to get her out of the trunk he's covered all three.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:10 pm

Carrie Ann wrote:I think Jay did this whole thing and Jen was his cover, although he may have lied to her too in order to get her to cover for him on what she thought was a small thing. I don't know his motivation, but I wondered if it had something to do with Stephanie. Like Hae knew that Jay was cheating on her or something.
Quoting myself because I posted this before I'd listened to this morning's episode (Ep 8), and now I believe it more strongly. I'm so addicted to this show and this story, and I don't want to look at any outside information because it would just ruin the experience, but at the same time...I must know.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  eventide82 on Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:37 am

I blew through all eight episodes this week and I am riveted. I also think Jay had a very, very big involvement in the murder, possibly to the point of doing it himself. I just don't buy somebody who admitted that they lied to police wouldn't fabricate events that implicate Adnan to the extent that he was the murderer, not Jay. I also can't stop thinking about Adnan saying to Sarah on the phone that that day was nothing special. That he couldn't think of anything about that day that stands out and that everything Jay said just didn't happen. There was something about the way he said it that sounded so....honest.

I don't believe at all that Hae was murdered in the Best Buy Parking lot. Even though they timed it, I don't think it could be done that quickly by Adnan.

I was really found it really interesting when the lawyer said she knows when she has an innocent client, because they become completely useless at a witness. I had never thought of that before.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  puddingcup on Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:44 pm

I just listened to episode 9.
Spoiler:
Now I can't believe that Adnan did it. Not after I heard him talk about the trial, and heard his letters to Krista, and how hard it was to not be believed, and how when he listened to Hae's mother crying he thought of his own parents, how he thought it would be easier on his parents if he *had* done it, and on and on. I can't believe that a 17 year old who had no history of violence could plan and execute a murder, and did it with his own hands (as opposed to a gun). Or, at least I am in the Krista camp, that if he did do it, I don't know what I can believe anymore. But…if Adnan didn't do it, that means Jay did it, because why would he make up everything he said if the murderer was a random other person? If this were a fictional mystery, I would say that Stephanie, Jay's girlfriend, did it, and Jay made up the entire Adnan involvement to protect Stephanie. But I can't imagine that being the case in a true story. And that bothers me as well. I haven't looked up the case in the news, so I don't know whether this podcast has actually led to any discoveries in the case, whether to hurt or help Adnan, but it bothers me that I and others are listening to the podcast as entertainment, when the people involved went through so much pain.I would change my mind if this podcast "helped" the situation in some way though, either got Adnan out of jail if he is innocent, or if he isn't, the podcast eventually vindicated Jay, because if he is telling the truth, I can't imagine how horrible it would be to have thousands of strangers convinced that you are the actual murderer, 15 years after the events.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  blixie on Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:27 pm

I loved this episode, because it we got both some movement on the Crime solving puzzle aspect, so thank you Laura and Summer for piping up, and because I think the insight into how Adnan has lived with this case for 15 years most of them in prison, was just a really important story. Religion can be a great salve when your experiencing something awful, and while he believed as a young man, it was the belief OF a young man, a cultural inheritance, one he wanted to negotiate on his own terms with the rest of his identity. But his line about him having to embrace his own responsibility in his situation, that made so much sense to me, he's stuck there either way, he could brood and rage, pine, and hope, or he could find a way to be at peace with his reality. That he's achieved that is admirable whether he is guilty or not, though especially if he is.

Summer's info was the most interesting, Hae being on campus as late as 3:00 really shows how baseless the states timeline is, the timeline based on Jay's testimony. And it was deeply satisfying to hear Sarah stop beating around the bush and admit she's tossing the Best Buy/2:36 call business out the window, and while she didn't say it, I think what that meant in conjunction with Summer's narrative is: Jay IS the liar. Her hypothesis was: One of them is lying and it's CLEARLY Jay, thus almost everything he testified to has to be pitched. Also Laura, girl, mad props for ripping off Best Buy on the regular, that was way too much stress for me, I kept it small in my day, like The Perry Drugs make up section down the street.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  naughty zoot on Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:40 pm

I have to agree with both of you. Also, I think this hasn't been addressed but in Jay's first interview with the cops (I think) he refers to Adnan as an "ex-friend". So, what's the deal with that?
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  blixie on Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:54 pm

There is SO much in Jay's interviews that creeps me that is but one. Another one though is still his "story" about going out to Patpsco Park to smoke a joint, watch the sunset, and talk dreamily about what it was like to murder Hae (especially he rmouthing words at him? WUT?). That whole account continues to ping first person, and not in anyway as something Adnan would say. The whole scene Jay paints, is like a reverie, and chilled me to my core, and was probably the first time I was like yo that dude killed her. No one recalls or sets such a scene so carefully unless they lived it, and it's so blantantly a lie and so clearly a *fantasy*. You know who fantasizes about murder? MURDERERS.

Then there was his weirdly specific note about how when he picked Adnan up at The Bust Buy (RME) Adnan had on RED GLOVES. Did I mention the gloves, were RED? This is another indication to me he is trying to get in front of physical evidence found on Hae/in the car and to explicitly link it to Adnan, who the cops wanted to believe did it anyway.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  mialoubug on Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:50 pm

I'm still very much on the fence. I don't know why just yet; there is something just not gelling for me across all the information. I change my mind every single episode.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  biakbiak on Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:12 pm

I am very much on the fence as well about his guilt or innocence, but that doesn't mean that I understand how the jury convicted him beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence. Heck, I am surprised the State even brought the case to trial based on the evidence.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Matinee on Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:31 pm

I'm with biakbiak - I don't know who did it but the case was crap. I'm sure they brought it to trial because of Jay, though - juries love an eyewitness.

I don't buy the "one or the other is lying". It's still quite possible they both are. I'm not sure what to think. I do think Jay's final story was extremely tailored by the police in those untaped 3 hours.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Francie Nolan on Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:22 pm

I'm finally caught up, which means I was finally able to read this whole thread. I have SO MANY THOUGHTS.

I feel my allegiance change each episode, but the feeling that Jay is not telling the whole truth and is more involved than he admits is a constant. After episode 8, the Jay episode, I felt less convinced of Adnan's innocence. In the present day interviews with the Woodlawn alumni, Jay comes off like a weird-but-lovable stoner (though I can't get past that stabbing story either. WHAT. Also "He had a rat-eating frog" is odd evidence to support the "He was an animal lover" claim). But the last episode swung me back around to feeling more inclined to believe Adnan. There is something so believable in his account of his arrest and questioning and of his frustration in court. He just seemed so naive about the whole situation, in his letters back then and in his present-day recollections--a kid who's worried about handing in his annotated bibliography on time. I'm the same age as Adnan and Hae, and I keep thinking back to myself in my senior year of high school, in 1999, and just how young and clueless I was. Hae's diary entries make me so sad--she had her whole life ahead of her.

I'm glad SK officially declared the Best Buy scenario bullshit. It's never made a lick of sense. I could even get past Adnan strangling Hae in the car--you're parked in an isolated spot, you're inside the car, people passing by wouldn't ordinarily be peering into your windows. But the idea of taking someone's body out of a car and stuffing it into a trunk in broad daylight at a suburban shopping center is so implausible. Now that the 2:36 time of death seems unlikely, I'm really curious about how the state determined that 20-minute window. Did they overlook something?

I keep going back to Jay's Patapsco State Park reverie, too. It's something out of a movie. The shifting locations of the trunk pop story are so shady--the intersection, the Best Buy lot, and now the pool hall. But then so many things about Adnan's story bother me, too. I keep going back to the story of The Neighbor Boy, who identified Adnan by name. The fact that he never tried to call or page Hae is a red flag for me. And why the hell did Jay, who is not even Adnan's good friend, have his car and brand new cell phone? This is 1999; my mom had just got a cell phone and it was a huge luxury for middle-class people like us. She only got 15 free minutes per month and she guarded those with her life. If she called me from the phone, she would say "Cell phone" instead of hello, which meant that I had best talk fast. I would have given my eye teeth for a cell phone of my own back in 1999, and sure as hell wouldn't have let some dude who wasn't even that close with borrow it.

Gah. I don't know what to think anymore.

Does anyone else mentally insert The Wire characters into the narrative? Any time the State's Attorney's office is mentioned, I picture Rhonda Pearlman. Ritz and MacGillivary take the form of Landsman and Mello, for some reason--I think its the Bawlmer accents.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Matinee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:10 am

It always comes back to the loaning of the car and cell for me. That, combined with the statements of other track members that Jay dropping off/picking up Adnan was common makes me not buy Adnan's statement of them being acqaintances rather than friends. I want Sarah to ask about that.

Also Hae's letter doesn't back Adnan's claim that he wasn't bothered by the breakup.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  blixie on Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:34 am

They actually got back together after she wrote that though, and Adnan admits he was sad and bummed about the break up, but he'd moved on by Christmas break and not single soul in their social circle or at school perceived him as brooding or resentful about it. When he says Jay isn't his friend it's because your dealer is not your friend, but you hang out with them all the time and your on the surface *friendly*, and if he's using your car to get more drugs well..... And Jay was dating his actual BF, Stephanie.

If there is any one thing that gives me the most pause about Adnan, it's asking Hae for a ride that day, and lying about it being in the shop, it's still not a smoking gun, but it's one of those things that objectively looks pretty bad, and it isn't just one person saying it but a cop and four other people. But then at the same time that's based on witness accounts, and I am back to how memories are for shit and are those girls remembering the right day or the right reason he said he needed a ride. And maybe he was bummed about being stuck at school for an hour and half before track. Plus Krista is the one who testified to the car in the shop bit, and she is 100% of the opinion he is innocent.

Up against Jay's litany of lies, his telling Jenn immediately, him knowing where the car was, his shovels, his getting rid of evidence, and his freaking Patapsco Park murder fantasy, I'm still leaning Jay did it.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  naughty zoot on Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:16 am

Having an 18 year old son, I totally buy the acquaintances, not friends narrative. My kid's actually said that about people who've given him rides to and from work and who he hangs out with sometimes (and now y'all have me assuming they're drug dealers, ha).
I also find it problematic that none of the cops will talk about the case. Hasn't one of them been investigated/indicted for "irregularities" in suspect confessions/statements?
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  biakbiak on Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:25 pm

Getting rides from an acquaintence doesn't sound weird to me; however, giving him your car and cell phone does seem weird if you weren't actually friends.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Carrie Ann on Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:02 pm

I think I'm getting kind of confused with Adnan's vague recollections of that day vs. Jay's story vs. other people's statements. But, this was Stephanie's birthday, right? When Adnan wanted to make sure Jay had bought her a present? Did Adnan claim that he went with Jay to shop for that present during school that day, or was that what Jay said? Either way, it doesn't seem that odd to me that Jay might ask to borrow Adnan's car and phone from the shopping trip onward until after track, and that Adnan would agree.

Speaking of that--one of Adnan's track friends who said Adnan was at practice that day and that he saw Jay pick him up, also said that was like a regular thing. That he was so used to seeing Jay pick Adnan up after practice that he just kind of expected it. So my question is, was that always in Adnan's car? Or did Jay have his own car? Where was it that day? Did anyone bother to check on that?

Also, related to this track kid who says he saw Adnan, and Asia, and now Summer: did the police NEVER come to the school to deliver a message asking people to come forward to talk to them if they saw Hae that day, or later, if they saw Adnan? Did they ONLY talk to the track coach? While Hae was missing, did they bother to try to find out who the last person to talk to her was? Honestly, that investigation was so shoddy. I don't care what the TAL hired expert says. If that's above average, we have a shitload of work to do training cops. Damn.

But then so many things about Adnan's story bother me, too. I keep going back to the story of The Neighbor Boy, who identified Adnan by name.
The Neighbor Boy thing is basically meaningless, because he told his neighbor this story in April, six weeks after Adnan had been arrested and this story was probably all over the place by that point. Neighbor Man has no memory of doing this, and probably what happened was that he told her Jay's side of the story (the side the media was probably reporting, and Neighbor Boy's schoolmates were gossiping about), and a misunderstanding occurred. Either he deliberately made it seem like he was in the Jay role, or she blew it out of proportion. But regardless, I don't think there's any way there was a third party involved.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  mialoubug on Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:07 pm

Especially given the expense of cell phones at the time (1999).

I do believe the Jay's narrative was tailored very precisely by the detectives. However, I also believe that Adnan had something to do with Hae's death, whether he did it or asked Jay to take care of it. I don't buy Adnan being an innocent in this. He is definitely involved somehow, but how he was convicted on the evidence given is suspect.

It's weird. I don't believe either of them but I am inclined toward believing Jay over Adnan based soley on their presentations (and not the evidence. Which I know is the wrong thing to do but the presentation does color everything for me.) Adnan seems really smarmy to me; Jay seems more straightforward. however, that could be the way they are presented to us.

I was talking with a psychiatry friend about this and he is of the firm belief that Adnan has socio-pathetic tendancies. NOt sure why he sees this but I thought it interesting.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  mokey75 on Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:23 pm

mialoubug wrote:
I was talking with a psychiatry friend about this and he is of the firm belief that Adnan has socio-pathetic tendancies.  NOt sure why he sees this but I thought it interesting.

Ha! I said to my husband last week, "I think Sarah has found her charming sociopath."

I don't think this is a zero sum game - it's entirely possible that both Jay and Adnan are lying. While the cell phone records didn't match Jay's account exactly, I don't remember the piece about Adnan's phone in Leakin Park being disproved. Adnan claims he had his phone all night but had no explanation for that. I think he gave Jay his car so he'd have an excuse to ask Hae for a ride. And the letter Hae wrote about him needing to let her go after their break-up is pretty damning. If he was being an ass after they broke up the first time, then it's not exactly a stretch to think he might have gone off the deep end after a second break-up, when she had a new boyfriend and his hope of getting back together was nil. I'm more inclined to believe Hae's words as fact than friends and acquaintances for whom Adnan may have been putting on a brave face.
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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Matinee on Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:52 pm

Carrie Ann wrote:I think I'm getting kind of confused with Adnan's vague recollections of that day vs. Jay's story vs. other people's statements. But, this was Stephanie's birthday, right? When Adnan wanted to make sure Jay had bought her a present? Did Adnan claim that he went with Jay to shop for that present during school that day, or was that what Jay said? Either way, it doesn't seem that odd to me that Jay might ask to borrow Adnan's car and phone from the shopping trip onward until after track, and that Adnan would agree.

Speaking of that--one of Adnan's track friends who said Adnan was at practice that day and that he saw Jay pick him up, also said that was like a regular thing. That he was so used to seeing Jay pick Adnan up after practice that he just kind of expected it. So my question is, was that always in Adnan's car? Or did Jay have his own car? Where was it that day? Did anyone bother to check on that?

I remember it as Adnan saying that's why Jay had his car and cell that day in his discussion of them as "not really friends", but that someone from the track team later mentioned that Jay dropping him off (in Adnan's car, I believe, it seems that Jay didn't have one hence the loaning story) was commonplace. It seemed to me like Adnan minimizing and excusing as a one-time thing in part of the "Jay wasn't really a friend" framing.

I really want Sarah to follow-up on the whole timeline being thrown out issue, particularly since it makes the Asia letter fairly meaningless. Which as others have noted also may explain Adnan's no-reaction to the finding and statement of Asia in the present.

The overall emphasis on him being at track surprises me as it's absolutely unconfirmed. Even Adnan I think said "I would likely have been at track" - less positive than he was about the fact that he certainly hung out with Jay that specific evening.

I don't know how much to read into Jay's shifting story given my belief that it was being specifically tailored during the questioning. It's actually exactly the sort of shifting I'd expect to see if police were trying to make evidence they fit a narrative that didn't quite suit it. Meaning I still think they are both liars, one is just a guided liar and the other a "lying through vagueness and avoidance" liar.

The fact that Adnan seemed to have the cell (as in, says he had it and seems fairly certain about that part of his story) for the specific park pings that were also the ones that seemed least likely to be in error is very notable to me.

They were definitely hanging out off and on that evening, both on each of their accounts and on witnesses. It seems that his cell was in the park. He seems to my perspective to be minimizing his actual relationship with Jay. It's all shady enough that I think they both did it.

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  Francie Nolan on Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:39 pm

The Neighbor Boy thing is basically meaningless, because he told his neighbor this story in April, six weeks after Adnan had been arrested and this story was probably all over the place by that point.


OH, I forgot about that detail! Now that I remember, there was something that made me feel less unsettled by that story.  I always go back to the Mr. S. story, too.  He probably is just a random passerby (with albeit an flamboyant police record) who stumbled upon the scene, but there is part of me that wonders if he went there looking to find a body.

I'm so curious about the detectives, too.  

Have we all seen (listened to?) the parody?  The "Mehl...kheemp?" intonation is spot on.  Also, charts for people obsessed with Serial.  I confess to googling "Jay serial last name."

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Re: Podcasts and iTunesU

Post  katesti on Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:41 pm

Those charts are awesome. I particularly love the Laura one.

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