The Batman Movies

Can't believe that we didn't have one of these yet, so I'll take the opportunity to not start the topic we need, but the topic we deserve.

The third trailer for The Dark Knight Rises is out and it features a lot of Joseph Gordon Levitt. And it's awesome.

I'm really, really starting to wonder who JGL is supposed to be. I can't believe that Dick Grayson would feel the need to change his name to join the police force, but given the 8 year gap between movies and the focus on his character in that trailer, I feel like he has to have been someone important in the interim.

"You've given this city everything!"

"Not yet."

Man, I can't freakin' wait. That's one of those absolutely character perfect dialogue exchanges. I know some people rag on Dent's "live long enough to become a villain" line in The Dark Knight, but even if it's cliche, I think Nolan really has a talent for just nailing the sound of these characters.

I really like the eerie quietness of the first minute. I'm still not sold on Hathaway (and seriously that costume/hair is just way too girly and pretty for me, like it doesn't fit the darker vibe of this series), but I'm liking JGL and Hardy from what I can see so far.

I'm going to post a link in spoiler text, even though it's a pure speculation post from Cracked.com but everything I'm seeing makes me wonder if it's spot on.

Spoiler:

I tend to agree with the general theory. Seeing as it's the last of the trilogy and all and the line from the trailer makes me think it might go that way. I'm still not entirely sold on Anne Hathaway, but I'll reserve judgement until I see the movie properly. At least I can sort of understand Bane now!

I can't access that link (work internet policy, boo) but have my own theory:

Spoiler:

Not keen on Hathaway so far, but my reservations are based on things that she can't help - she just looks so goofy and cartoony to me, no matter how she's dressed or how well she acts, that I can't take her seriously. As a comic actress I think she's great, but not anything serious.

I think part of the genius of Nolan's films is that he gives you a lot of information in the trailers without actually telling you anything. Meaning, his movies are so full of stuff, little tiny details, when I see one of his trailers, I immediately think, "Oh, not stoked". But then I think about it...oh wait, that was, and then there was, oh, huh, hey, wait...wait...wait...this is going to be awesome!

The speculation for this movie is ridiculously fun to be a part of.

(Add me to the list of not being sold on Hathaway...but I don't really like Catwoman as a character in the Nolan Batman canon, so I would have not been sold on anybody in that role, really.)

Oh, and my theory has always been

Spoiler:

easybreezy wrote:I think part of the genius of Nolan's films is that he gives you a lot of information in the trailers without actually telling you anything. Meaning, his movies are so full of stuff, little tiny details, when I see one of his trailers, I immediately think, "Oh, not stoked". But then I think about it...oh wait, that was, and then there was, oh, huh, hey, wait...wait...wait...this is going to be awesome!

The speculation for this movie is ridiculously fun to be a part of.

(Add me to the list of not being sold on Hathaway...but I don't really like Catwoman as a character in the Nolan Batman canon, so I would have not been sold on anybody in that role, really.)

I wasn't sold on the idea of Two-Face, but that worked well, so I'm willing to hold off on a final opinion regarding Catwoman till I see it.

Eris Rising wrote:

easybreezy wrote:I think part of the genius of Nolan's films is that he gives you a lot of information in the trailers without actually telling you anything. Meaning, his movies are so full of stuff, little tiny details, when I see one of his trailers, I immediately think, "Oh, not stoked". But then I think about it...oh wait, that was, and then there was, oh, huh, hey, wait...wait...wait...this is going to be awesome!

The speculation for this movie is ridiculously fun to be a part of.

(Add me to the list of not being sold on Hathaway...but I don't really like Catwoman as a character in the Nolan Batman canon, so I would have not been sold on anybody in that role, really.)

I wasn't sold on the idea of Two-Face, but that worked well, so I'm willing to hold off on a final opinion regarding Catwoman till I see it.

The difference, I think, was the ability to tone down the cartoonery of the character (is that a word?).

Two-face, I could see. Catwoman, though...what do you take from the character that isn't an exaggeration of some kind. Even Hathaway herself said she based the character on Hedy Lamarr (or one of those old-timey va-va-voom actresses).

easybreezy wrote:
Two-face, I could see. Catwoman, though...what do you take from the character that isn't an exaggeration of some kind. Even Hathaway herself said she based the character on Hedy Lamarr (or one of those old-timey va-va-voom actresses).

Point taken. However, you could also ask what you could take from The Joker that isn't an exaggeration of some kind....

I think what grounds the Joker is that underneath all the joking, there's the capability for serious mayhem and destruction (reference the "Wanna see a trick" bit from the last movie, and pretty much everything else). And that he's the other side of Batman, really.

I've always seen Batman as no small sociopath, just like the Joker.

(tangent: I've always liked Michael Keaton as Batman best. He had an easy charm that was so distinctly disconnected from the Caped Crusader, that to me, made him the perfect kind of sociopath to put on a batsuit and kick ass).

With Catwoman, I see a lot of unrealistic stuff that's really, really hard to ground in reality. I see the character here as Emma Peel trying to fit into the Bourne Identity. Which, meh.

I've always seen Batman as no small sociopath, just like the Joker.

There are no shortages of that interpretation, but it's one of my least favorite variations on the character. There's probably a case to be made that *any* version of Batman has it to some degree, but he's been so Flanderized by it over the last two decades. When sociopathy is his motivation, he tends to be written more and more as Batdick*, unable to trust anyone or interact with even Clark or Diana without being rude and antisocial (*as opposed to DickBat - the nickname given to Dick Grayson when he wore the cowl during Bruce's time travelling "death"). I don't think Batman should be Silver Age happy chappy, but I also think he should be a hero because he chooses to be and has the capacity to do so, and not because he's fortunate enough to manifest his psychological disease in a more... constructive... manner than Joker or Riddler.

Looking forward to Batman post-Nolan, I think it would be great if AMC/HBO/TNT would step up and take live-action Batman back to TV. I think it would be stellar to take one of the long-form stories - my pick would be Cataclysm/No Man's Land - and give it a proper adaptation.

I prefer the Burton films to the Nolan films.

I think the second Burton is just okay, but the first one is still number one in my heart. I saw it in the theater when I was nine, and it quickly became the Batman movie to pit all the others against.

It doesn't hurt that Jack Nicholson happens to be my favorite actor of all time, and that I had a major crush on Michael Keaton as Batman. ;)

I hated the second Burton movie so much that it cancelled out my love of the first one. I've blanked out most of it, but I remember the plot being a mess, and just HATING Danny DeVito's performance.

Yeah, I'm not crazy about the second one, but it hasn't ruined my love for the first one. I actually really liked Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman, though. She has those femme fatale catlike features at least, unlike Anne Hathaway. Anne Hathaway just looks too goody-goody eager beaver for me to "buy" her as Catwoman.

I used to hate Batman Returns, largely because of the Penguin and Catwoman - they just weren't those characters, at all. And then there was the meanness of it all - the Penguin biting that guy's nose, the misogyny, the Penguin talking about children's erogenous zones.

Now... I still hate it. I'm still not down with the gleeful cruelty of parts of it. But my problems with the mischaracterizations have mellowed, largely because they're no longer the only game in town for adaptations of the characters. We've now had... six?... different Batman animated series, three or four soft reboots and one hard reboot in the comics, the Nolan movies, and the DC Animated features. As I mentioned in the Unpopular Opinions thread, the characters are fluid and stand in so many genres. To me, that means there's no reason to get too worked up when a particular adaptation isn't your cup of tea. So the dark, freakshow Penguin and the Zombie Catwoman no longer get to me - I've got the Timm and Dini cartoon version for my preferred Catwoman.

But the Penguin biting someone's nose off, fondling some girls breasts at a press conference, and... the other thing... still leave me very cold on Returns. And and Robin is just horrible.

Heh, I hated the first Burton film and really like the second one, and I enjoyed the Val Kilmer Batman. I thought that film was good fun. But Batman and Robin was pure shite. I worked in the cinema when that was released and a lot of kids either were taken out of the screen because they were bawling their eyes out, or they got bored and played in the foyer instead.

I'm not a big fan of Catwoman vs. Penguin (with special appearance by Batman) Batman Returns. By which I mean I find it compellingly horrible. I find myself more or less in agreement with noted Batmanologist Chris Sims, in that the Burton/Schumacher films are all terrible, but the Schumacher films come by their terrible in an honest, Silver-Agey sort of fashion that's almost endearing and fun. (Also, they're currently tearing up the Superman Movies. Worth checking out.)

I'm in a strange place with Dark Knight Rises. If I'm being honest, the trailer doesn't excite me. I mean, I think it looks like it's going to be a really good movie... but I'm not excited at all.

I mean, I think it looks like it's going to be a really good movie... but I'm not excited at all.

Yeah... the trailer for The Dark Knight had me absolutely pee-my-pants excited. Rises is more, "Oh yeah. So that's what I'm doing on July 20."

Going through Comics Alliance's take on The Dark Knight, I nearly choked on this gem:

David: As we'll see as this movie goes on, the one thing the Joker absolutely cannot predict, and does not plan for, and doesn't understand, is altruism.

Chris: He and Lord Voldemort have so much to talk about, including their intense hatred of self-righteous orphans.

The line itself is funny, but it also hadn't really occurred to me until reading it - despite the fact that a lot of Republican commentors came out loving this movie (particularly Batman's cell phone operation), it really is a hard core slam at Objectivism. And I'm not trying to get political here with calling out Republicans - just observing that the movie came out just as Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged were becoming all the rage with the American right. One of the things I love about this movie is how malleable it is - rightist commentors come out loving Batman's "war on terror", I come out loving the criticism of the real war on terror that Batman's is meant to be.

and I enjoyed the Val Kilmer Batman.

Oh yay, so there are at least two of us? It was flawed, and campy (but in the way I enjoy), but still overall stayed true to the psychological implications of dressing up like a bat to work out your issues. I don't think that minimizes his heroism and or undermines that his motives and generally his ends are good. It just gives it a complexity I don't think say, Peter Parker has, because his dna has literally been altered, and there is no way to both reveal his freak and live his life AND help people. That Batman's only super power is immense wealth, and that it is altruism and empathy that motivates him, doesn't change the fact that dressing up like a bat and beating the shit out of bad guys on his own is still screwed up and dark and morally challenging. While I don't see him as sociopath, I do think he's somewhat psychotic, but only in the dual personality degree that he takes The Batman, the disassociation, the alienation, that to me is absolutely inherent to the very premise of a guy who has an alter ego complete with costume, cave, and car.

And for all the criticism BR is the VILLAIN SHOW I fail to see how the TDK's huge focus on the journey of Two-Face and the Joker is all that different (better done arguably, but not different in emphasis) and in every Nolan film I've rooted for those villains over Batman, or at least enjoyed them fucking with him, more than I enjoyed him vanquishing them.

I will probably end up seeing Rises, but entirely for JGL and Tom Hardy.

oesn't change the fact that dressing up like a bat and beating the shit out of bad guys on his own is still screwed up and dark and morally challenging.

I think that's a problem that stems from isolating Batman from the rest of his world. In a world where Batman is the only costumed hero, I might understand that argument more, but Batman comes from a place where demigods fly around in skintight uniforms and aliens from dead worlds come to Earth to fight crime.

blixie wrote:

and I enjoyed the Val Kilmer Batman.

Oh yay, so there are at least two of us? It was flawed, and campy (but in the way I enjoy), but still overall stayed true to the psychological implications of dressing up like a bat to work out your issues. I don't think that minimizes his heroism and or undermines that his motives and generally his ends are good. .

Of the BurSchu movies, I find the Kilmer one strangely the strongest, and mostly because it's the only one that even attempts give Bruce/Batman any focus as a character. In Burton's Batman, the real POV character is Vicki Vale-- Bruce is kept at arm's length.

And for all the criticism BR is the VILLAIN SHOW I fail to see how the TDK's huge focus on the journey of Two-Face and the Joker is all that different (better done arguably, but not different in emphasis) and in every Nolan film I've rooted for those villains over Batman, or at least enjoyed them fucking with him, more than I enjoyed him vanquishing them.

In TDK, Bruce is still at the center, character-wise. Two-Face's journey ties right back to Bruce, since Harvey represents Bruce's escape from Batman, which then goes to hell. In BR, Bruce/Batman is almost incidental. It's essentially Selina/Catwoman's story, Bruce representing (badly) her anchor to normalcy.

The chanting in the trailers? If that's actually part of the football game, the movie gets an automatic "A" from me.

The abbreviated segment that appeared in the episode with the three kids telling wildly different legends about Batman is about as much TDKR as I'm willing to handle.

I suppose it's not fair to blame TDKR for the shit that happened in the comics industry following its release - and particularly the unending assholization of Batman - but at the same time, when DC's flagship Batman title is comfortable featuring graphic splash pages of blood and mutilation without even a pretense of caring about "all ages" it's also hard to be forgiving to the point where it all began. TDKR is brutal and cynical and mean spirited, but not quite enough so that I can believe it might have been intended as satire the way All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder could have been.