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Sleepy Hollow

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Post  Grainne Mhaol Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:12 am

Why why why why why? I had a horrible feeling this would happen by why? After everything the writers have put Irving through this season, he dies and Princess Peach lives? And Surfer Dude too? They could have killed either one off and the fandom would have fallen back in love with this show. But killing one of the show's most beloved characters, played by an actor who has been the show's biggest fan and promoter, feels like a kick in the teeth.

I've said this before, but the writers are seriously disconnected from reality if they think viewers will tolerate much more of the Ichabod and Katrina show [I accidentally wrote 'Latrina' - Freudian slip?]. Why must characters we care about die in service of this tired redemption arc between characters who haven't earned our sympathy or consideration?

It was thrilling for the most part and zipped along quite merrily, but having Katrina sacrifice herself to destroy Moloch would have set the stage for the next part of the season so much better.

Urgh, I'm so frustrated right now. I promised not to give up on this show, but I'm glad it's midseason time, because I think me and Sleepy Hollow need to go on a break.
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Post  blixie Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:28 pm

Apparently critics of Katrina don't get it Len Wiseman wants us to know:

What really takes a different turn is between Katrina and Crane, as well. There’s a lot of curiosity about why Katrina is struggling with her powers and her place in this war, and I’ve heard people say is her character underutilized — I would say there’s a difference between underutilized and not realized. When she discovers her full potential, things really get out of control."

It's this kind of statement from the producers that makes me fairly confident I no longer need to watch this show, because this show is now about Kartina and how 'out of control' she is, and how many more episodes in the spring will be devoted to the story of Katrina, while Abbie literally sits tied up in corner and has to listen to Ichabod simper after her useless ass and their evil son.

My understanding was they had 15 of 18 episodes in the can before all this feedback blew up, and the ONLY episode that may reflect any kind of course correction will be the season finale. That's assuming they've taken any of the criticism to heart, which the interviews don't indicate. They'll be lucky if it isn't also the series finale.

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Post  MichiSichi Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:36 pm

I hope this isn't the series finale, I understand all the irritating bits but I hope it sorts itself out I really do still want to see this show.
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Post  sagitare Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:39 pm

I'm pretty sure Irving isn't out of the picture for good. Henry still owns Irving's soul, we know Hawley is going, so I'm sure at some point all that will converge into...something. Besides, Orlando is still on IMDB as being with the show through 2015 so THERE'S THAT, DAMMIT.

Because of all the mis-steps and outright falls this season has taken, I truly can't believe they'd get rid of Irving, despite what some articles I've been reading today with Mark Goffman may say (hilariously, one of the things he mentions is an upcoming episode that features backstory for Hawley where "we'll learn more about his history". Dude. We don't need to 'understand him better' because NO ONE CARES about him.)

And if Irving is just back for a few appearances a la Andy Brooks...well, both the character and Orlando deserve much more than that.

Re: Katrina - if facing the freaking Apocalypse wasn't enough motivation for the writers to show her to her "full potential" then what the fuck is? Yeah, there is a difference between 'underutilized' and 'not realized', but it isn't the viewers who are confused about it.
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Post  Carrie Ann Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:36 pm

Uh, yeah, things are not good here, folks. Goffman is saying nothing that indicates they have any intentions of fixing their problems. I didn't even bother watching last week's episode until last night, and half of it was pre-empted because of the Ferguson decision last week, and I had no interest in watching the parts I missed. The show has just lost its sparkle, and even the Ichabod/Abbie scenes are tainted for me because they seem to spend half of them talking about Katrina or Henry anyway, and that just makes me hate Ichabod.

I'm not sure I'll be back for this show in January, because at this rate, I'm fairly certain this season can't turn around. Maybe they'll get renewed and Fox will add a showrunner or exert some other influence to make Goffman & Co. look at the problems they've created. But I'm not hopeful. Such a bummer, because Mison and Beharie are so excellent.
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Post  Instant Monkeys Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:03 pm

Damn it, I hate when I swipe the mouse and it goes back a page and erases everything I wrote. Grrr.

To summarize: I will be back in January, definitely, BUT I am also really glad to have a break because I have not been excited about this show the last few weeks and I am pretty irritated at it all right now.

My hopeful suggestion is that the showrunners ARE hearing and absorbing the negative feedback and are understanding to a greater degree than they're letting on what's not working/what people don't like, but at this point they're pretty much tied to what they've already produced, which leads to chipper non-answers and seemingly selective hearing. Hearing that people have run out of patience for Katrina, they may well be thinking "crap, we should have killed her," but since they didn't, and if there are more Katrina storylines coming up, they kind of have to double down; they can't very well say "You guys are right; you should probably stop watching for the next 8 episodes or so."

Even if they do/did make changes to the finale I suspect they won't let on, or won't emphasize, that they did so in response to fan requests because then that would kind of be saying "yeah, the previous 17 episodes were kind of a failure, but this was all we could do." (I also think it's good to be cagey about how much influence fan rage has on the direction of a show, because fans rage a lot, and if you become too reactive it could quickly become a mess.) So, what they end up saying when they hear loud and clear that people are tired of Katrina and they think "well crap, we have that huge Katrina story coming up" is stuff like about how Katrina just needs more DEVELOPMENT and her upcoming storyline is really going to SURPRISE you (read: not be the thing that you currently hate about Katrina), etc. And of course our response is "Katrina does not need to be DEVELOPED any more, she needs to GO AWAY" but that's sort of the best way they can put it, I guess? I think it's their way of trying to get across "We did a whole lot more of the thing you hate, but here's a way to look at it in which the outcome might be that you'll like it." We probably won't, but I don't know what else they can say. But, to me that doesn't mean necessarily that when they CAN do something about it, they won't.

Well, my attempt to summarize the draft I lost is now longer than the thing it's replacing. In short: I'm hoping that their seeming inability to understand what anybody is saying about the show is not actually that; that it's being taken into consideration, but in the meantime they are being pretty blandly nonresponsive because they still have to promote the show they currently have. And I'm hoping that next year things will turn around a bit. I'm still annoyed it got to this point though.

One of the things I read this morning suggested that Moloch should have killed Katrina, and Henry then killed Moloch in revenge for that, which not only would have been much stronger motivation for Henry's abrupt turnaround, but would have had way more emotional impact AND would have probably been the most useful way in which Katrina had ever served the plot. If only.
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Post  blixie Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:19 am

(I also think it's good to be cagey about how much influence fan rage has on the direction of a show, because fans rage a lot, and if you become too reactive it could quickly become a mess.

Sure I guess, but it's not just fans, it's massive, almost universal critical backlash, and their blowing those journalists off too. Wiseman's statement about Katrina being "unrealized" is as close as anyone from their team has come to admitting they screwed up. They're demanding unearned patience and loyalty from their viewership, and offer nothing up as evidence they get it, not even placating words, like hey there's this woman who is our LEAD ACTRESS, she's amazing we have lots of good stuff for her coming up and if the reason they can't SAY that is because they really DO NOT have anything good coming up for her, well then I feel even better about cutting the cord.

Also they've been hearing the same feedback about Katrina from the press and the fans for over a year, their response was to sink the show even more deeply into her suck, so I can't really be sure they'll turn anything around. My only sliver of hope is in Mo Ryan's piece in the Huff Post where she discusses the fact that Hawley and Abbie were supposed to kiss in the episode last night, but they cut the kiss and ditched whatever romantic entanglement they had planned, and that definitely feels like something they did last minute directly in response to the negative response to Hawley generally, and to him coming between the sisters specifically. IDK maybe by January I'll be less fatalistic about the shows future.

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Post  Carrie Ann Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:54 am

Huh, I hadn't read Mo's article yet. That's surprising about Hawley. I'm glad they cut it. But if you listed the Top 10 problems with Season 2, Hawley would be at the bottom of that list for me, so for me the fact that they seem to have heard and absorbed the backlash about that but nothing else...well, what can you do.

Instant Monkeys, you make good points about how they have to spin the next half-dozen episodes in the media, since the criticism really ratcheted up around the time they were filming Ep 15 or something (I think). So they could potentially "fix" the last three episodes of the season, maybe, but not much before then. And you're right, they are presumably going to continue with the Ichatrina drama in those episodes, so they have to pretend that it's all going to be verrrrrrry interesting and surprising, when so far, nothing really has been between them.

But yeah, that's why I'm not sure I'm coming back in January. I have almost no interest in the show right now, and it doesn't sound like it's going to improve until maybe right before the finale. So I might just sit it out, let them pile up on the DVR, until I hear something positive is happening.
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Post  blixie Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:08 am

Oh re: the Hawley cut kiss I just meant there's evidence they can respond even late in the game to something they deem isn't going to be received well, though cutting a D level plot line that takes up probably a few minutes of screen time is different than cutting out how much story and screen time they've obvs invested in Mrs. Powers Weakened.

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Post  Carrie Ann Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:39 pm

Yeah, that's true. I'm still disturbed as to how the idea of Hawley and a love triangle with the sisters could have ever made it out of the writers' room at all, but Goffman seems like a real dim bulb, and a stubborn ass to boot. Because if this show were run by a woman and/or the writers' room was balanced, I have to believe things would look a lot different on the show.
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Post  QueenSix Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:27 pm

This is exactly how I felt when they (whoever the fuck 'they' are) brought in Brad Kern as a showrunner for the second season Beauty and the Beast. He turned the whole fucking thing around and even though there were two perfectly good ladies running the show, he came along, rebooted the whole thing even though it had been a perfectly serviceable first season with some decent set ups for the second season, including a cliffhanger.

Now I realise that Beauty and the Beast did not have the critics or ratings impact that Sleepy Hollow did, but it's just another sign of people with too much time on their hands tinkering with what works in season one and deciding they need to 'improve' but instead making you wonder who exactly was doing all the work in season one because going by Sleepy Hollow, it doesn't look like it was any of the lads currently trying to save their sinking ship!

I haven't even watched the last two episodes. It airs here on a Wednesday night and I have it series linked so I can come home from Brownies before nine o'clock, walk the dog and be sitting to watch it after 10pm. Last year, Meg's walks got a little postponed on Wednesday nights because I wanted to watch the show. Now, we're not even cutting our walks short to come home and watch. It makes me sad that the show is having so little impact on me at the moment. Which may be a bit silly considering what's going on in the world but my TV shows are important to me dammit! It's nice to have something to look forward to watching when the day is being crappy.

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Post  naughty zoot Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:38 pm

Well, the last minute didn't suck. As for the rest...eh. Abby getting duped bugs me.
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Post  Grainne Mhaol Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:57 pm

It was better than it has been in a while - Hawley didn't completely suck, they abandoned the stupid-arse love triangle. Maybe they're learning? I thought Orion was an okay addition to the canon and would have liked him to become a credible threat instead of Team Witness forming an alliance of necessity with the Horseman of Death.

Katrina continues to be worse than gonorrhea and taints everything about this show. Having her secretly masterminding all the evil goings-on and playing Abraham for her own reasons would be the only way to justify her brain-dead presence.

Irving is back! I'm sure they'll find a way to marginalise and exclude him in the next episode but I'm counting my blessings here.
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Post  sagitare Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:45 pm

Grainne Mhaol wrote:Katrina continues to be worse than gonorrhea and taints everything about this show. Having her secretly masterminding all the evil goings-on and playing Abraham for her own reasons would be the only way to justify her brain-dead presence.
When she blamed herself for Abraham becoming the Horseman I just about threw something at the TV. It was almost "If only I had done what I was supposed to and then you wouldn't have become so mad." I wouldn't have believed they could have made that character any worse than she is already. I mean, WTF?
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Post  Instant Monkeys Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:46 pm

I thought it was NOT TOO BAD! I enjoyed it more than I've been enjoying the show lately, for sure. Jenny did something, Hawley wasn't too annoying, Abbie and Crane had lots of cute married-couple moments, Katrina wasn't TOOOOOO annoying (I've accepted for the moment that there's going to be 20000% more Katrina than I would prefer in every episode for the foreseeable future), the angel was kiiiiinda cool ("Sooooo, have you seen dinosaurs?"), I liked Ichabod and Abbie's talk about what the hell they would do with their lives if the apocalypse was over, I liked the Trollando surprise at the end...my standards aren't super high right now, but I was good with it.

I also noticed a couple of instances where the closed captioning (I read better than I listen) differed from the spoken dialogue. There was one where...crap, I can't remember what it was referring to, but the captions had Ichabod saying something to Abbie like "I need to find out why" and the (clearly ADR'd) spoken line was "WE need to know why." So, basically repositioning the line so Ichabod was including Abbie in whatever he wanted to find out (sorry this is so vague; I should have written it down) instead of it being Ichabod haring off on some personal mission. (Since last-minute dialogue changes to an episode are sometimes not reflected in the captions, since a version of the episode sometimes has to be delivered to the captioning company before they're 100% finished with post-production on it so the captions can be done in time for the broadcast -- right? somebody correct me if I'm wrong.) There were a couple of these and it left me with a general feeling that they might be trying to do what they could to repair small things or position things differently. There was another one where Hawley was talking to Jenny about the bartender guy she'd been hitting on and the captions said something like "I still don't think he's good enough for you" and the spoken line was something like "I've been thinking about us."

I mean, I don't think either of those are earth-shattering, and I know that happens all the time with closed captioning, but I just came away with the impression of someone going right up to the last minute with poking around in there trying to spiff everything up, which makes me hopeful that there are bigger course corrections being considered even if we won't see them for a while.
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Post  Coneycat Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:24 am

I really enjoyed the episode, and I gotta say, I don't mind Katrina (although I wish they would give her something definitive to do.) My reasoning on the Katrina front is, she's an original character who's been in the cast from the get-go, and I want to save all my ire for Poochie who was dumped the hell on us and is usurping character stuff that could have been given to Irving and Jenny.

Also-- I wasn't too upset about Katrina doing the very traditional female thing of blaming herself for Abraham's choices, or at least I won't be as long as the show eventually makes it clear that Abraham is responsible for what he himself did. But I'm not bothered by her being invested in him and feeling responsible for him-- that's what she's like. So far, Katrina has been the character who unrealistically sees the good in people who don't deserve it, and feels compelled to try to save them, and in the case of Henry it sort of kind of worked out. (I actually was okay with Katrina being so invested in Henry, since she'd ACTUALLY MET HER SON, unlike Crane whose role as a father was always pretty theoretical.) So if Katrina has now taken up Abraham as her lost (rabid) puppy to rescue, it doesn't bother me because it feels in-character for her and hell, it might even work.

I can't believe I just wrote this much about Katrina. I'm not actually that invested in her!

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Post  MichiSichi Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:19 am

The beginning was like an homage to supernatural, hunters finding things ( yes I know they meant real hunters but still) , Angels and Ichabod looking for a case ...
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Post  CocoaGoddess Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:33 pm

My husband and I can't go two days without going on some ridiculous "WHY DID THEY RUIN THIS SHOW" rant.

I'm looking forward to reading this thread and seeing what everyone else thinks of the show. I just can't believe that it has nosedived so quickly so relatively early in its run. It took Supernatural six seasons to reach this level of suck.

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Post  Corvus Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:04 pm

It took Supernatural six seasons to reach this level of suck.
Three, but that was a specific demon issue. Even if we compromise on five, this Orion fellow is no Misha Collins.*

It's remarkable, to me at least, that in both cases it's angels. Makes Constantine all the more tragic since it started sucking with angels right out of the gate. While on the one hand, I'm all for storytellers telling their story. On the other hand, when I hear storytellers talk about the story they think they are telling, and it is not the one we are seeing, I am baffled. We are not (all of us) being prickly, narrow-minded, jeaaaalllllouussss or 'ship' obsessive. Your story really does suck.


*Apologies to Max Brown. If Katia Winter is any example, his abilities as an actor at not the problem.
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Post  CocoaGoddess Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:43 pm

I'm hard pressed to think of any season 3 arc that's as terrible as the Henry/Moloch/Struggle Witch abomination that's happening on Sleepy Hollow (though there certainly were some questionable stories during season 4-5). I will never forgive these writers for having our heroes helplessly chained to a tree while HENRY (strengthened by Mummy's love) defeated Moloch. Never. Ichabod might as well have stayed buried, Jenny comatose, and Abbie stuck in purgatory. They were pretty useless.

The problem with Constantine I feel is that it premiered ten years too late. The angel/demon stuff seems so played.

Something else that bothers me about Sleepy Hollow, but not so much Constantine, is that the portrayal of the demons and bad guys look so dated and amateur. Moloch looked like he was lifted straight out season 2 of Charmed and plucked into SH. I need more imagination and creativity here.

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Post  punzy Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:07 am


Three, but that was a specific demon issue. Even if we compromise on five, this Orion fellow is no Misha Collins.*

It's remarkable, to me at least, that in both cases it's angels. Makes Constantine all the more tragic since it started sucking with angels right out of the gate. While on the one hand, I'm all for storytellers telling their story. On the other hand, when I hear storytellers talk about the story they think they are telling, and it is not the one we are seeing, I am baffled. We are not (all of us) being prickly, narrow-minded, jeaaaalllllouussss or 'ship' obsessive. Your story really does suck.

Maybe we just don't get it. Because love, true love? I stopped watching a few episodes into this season. I appreciate you that keep watching and make me feel good about that choice.

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Post  Corvus Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:52 am

I'm hard pressed to think of any season 3 arc that's as terrible as the Henry/Moloch/Struggle Witch abomination that's happening on Sleepy Hollow
Nothing quite as bad, quite true. I just a very bad subjective reaction to two characters introduced at that time. Ahem. It represented, to me, a beginning of the drift away from what I loved about the show initially, though it took a lot longer to get to the point where I had to say "You aren't the show I fell in love with." And indeed, not as abrupt! Sleepy Hollow seems to have committed all the same sins (tonal shift, sidelining heroes, misuse of supporting characters, etc.) in like two episodes instead of two/three seasons.

As Coco points out: The first few episodes, with the white trees and the mirror and the herky-jerky figures were seriously creepy. And then we end up with Action Figure Moloch. Wahappen? As for what the once-terrifying Headless Horseman (with horse, ax and semi-auto) has been reduced to, well. I wouldn't wish that role collapse on Katie Cassidy.

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Post  MichiSichi Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:56 am

It's funny I read all your comments before seeing the season and I expected much worse which is good for me , I agree that they have failed to capture the creepiness of the first season ( the first episode moloch was wonderful) I hope they revive it in season 3
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Post  Grainne Mhaol Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:24 am

While I continue to have hope for the show's revival, it seems a faint hope as long as Mark Goffman's inexplicable love for Katr(r)i(n)a continues. I understand second season jitters, losing some of their best writers - all that's fine. However, trying to reset the formula so completely is nuts, especially when it wasn't broken to begin with.

It feels like the showrunners didn't know what they had, didn't like season one in particular (and from interviews seemed really uncomfortable with the response to Ichabbie). So when season two got greenlit so early, they came up with the whole Ichabod/Katrina/Henry arc that seemed so at odds with the adventure-based feel of the show. Drama, right? And then the Great Sidelining began, cause who needs fans when you've got critics on your side? Oops.

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Post  CocoaGoddess Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:15 pm

So very true Grainne Mhaol. The season 2 showrunners quite obviously have a different vision for the show than the season 1 showrunners, and I honestly believe that if they had actually had a hand in creating the show and the universe, we probably wouldn't have had the Mills as a core family on the show. They pretty much admitted that Scandal's success made it possible for them to cast a black woman in the role of Abbie Mills, not to mention the implications of having a white 17th century male suddenly transported to "post racial" 21st century America. The current showrunners seem uncomfortable with the focus on Ichabbie, and also seem hesitant to not have a story about Sleepy Hollow not stick to the original source material--meaning the story and the eventual endgame comes down to Ichabod, Katrina, and Abraham, because they are the core characters in Irving's story.

I'm sure they would love to eliminate the Mills completely, and give Kat(r)i(n)a the starring role as the second Witness, with her witchy immortality being the link between the past and the present, and giving her the role of the show's alpha heroine that they obviously think she deserves and is befitting of her place in the original story.

Another problem with Sleepy Hollow is that there is no Sleepy Hollow. I love most of the characters, but I'm tired of seeing them doing the same thing forever. The show opens with Ichy snarking incredulously about our screwed up society, Abbie smirks, they stumble onto a clue, and they spend the rest of the episode chasing after some relic. Katrina struts and heaves in a corset and skinny jeans and breathlessly chants some spell that will almost certainly fail. Abraham cries. Etc, etc.

They are isolated and alone and there's no sense of urgency.

But where is Sleepy Hollow? Where are the people, the characters, the INVESTMENT? This show desperately needs to go back to a format where they battle monsters of the week, and giving the audience a sense of evil overtaking this town and what's at stake if our heroes don't triumph in the end.

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