Mad Men

Shalamar wrote:I'm stunned that Pete - PETE, of all people - was the one who was disgusted and offended at Harry's "MLK's assassination is costing us money" attitude.

It's interesting, though - that's something that never occurred to me. When a national tragedy happens, and regular shows (with all their commercials) get pre-empted, eventually someone's going to say "Uh, we paid for a commercial that never aired, and we want our money back."

Pete's always been shown as not harboring racial prejudices-he looked disgusted with Roger's blackface, he didn't understand why Admiral wouldn't advertise TVs to black consumers, he was shown reading Ebony Magazine once, and when some newspaper technical thing made the girl in a bra ad look Puerto Rican according to the company, his attitude was, "Who cares, Puerto Rican girls buy bras, too!" When JFK was killed he was telling Trudy about the other guys telling jokes and worrying about ads not showing and seemed really put off by that behavior. He may be a slimeball in other ways but he's not a racist one.

I really like the shading of Pete being a non-racist despite all his other flaws, and I think part of it may be that Pete is a bit younger than some of that crew -- not stupid Harry I guess, but certainly Don and Roger. This isn't the entire reason for that character trait by any means, but I do think it shows a little bit of generational difference. Roger thought blackface was hilarious, and Pete thought it was distasteful, weird and gross. Which I think is partly because Pete as a human being is just not inclined towards racism, but I think it's also showing the times -- it brought to mind the imperfect modern example of maybe some older dude doing a mincy "limp wrists" joke about gay people and someone younger being like "...What? Not cool."

I weirdly really enjoy Megan and Peggy bonding in a non-catty way. Paul Newman was kind of out of the blue, no? And WHAT WAS UP WITH THOMAS MAPOTHER? I can only assume that will come to mean something later because last night it was just WHAT, WHY, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Go back to the tail section, Ethan Rom. Or wherever you were from. It's been a while.

Don's speech about how he was basically faking it with his kids for their entire lives and felt awful about that but then occasionally would feel the way he was supposed to feel in spite of himself made me emotional for some reason.

An interesting point I've seen brought up in a lot of reviews of this show over the years in regards to Pete being surprisingly progressive and liberal (and naturally so, not in a Kinsey way), is that no matter how hard he tries he is always an outsider (with his parents and with his workplace) that there is a good chance, knowingly or not, he identifies with other people who may feel the same way.

That makes sense to me. I'm sure he sees the clubby, insider giggling from people like Roger and (consciously or not) remembers when he's felt that coming in his direction. Despite all his privilege it really does seem like he's always struggled to fit in and be good enough and part of the gang and he always has to work harder than everyone else and never quite gets there, whereas people like Don don't even (seem to) have to try at all or struggle for one tiny second, it's just all handed to them like a birthright.

I also think its a credit to both Jon Hamm and Vincent Kartheiser's performances that we see how much personality and charm play a role in that. Pete and Don are not that different. They both are horrible people. We just forget the horrible things Don has done easier, or expect more of him because he is handsome, he is charming, and his struggle is much more poetic. And I think thats truthful. If someone has a better personality we give them more leeway (Roger Sterling is the biggest example of that, though I think hes just kind of a personal fuck up. He doesn't try to be awful). Pete always comes across as a try hard weasel. So we view him differently. But Pete has not actually done anything objectively worse than Don has. Even when he coerced that poor nanny into having sex with him. Don assaulted Bobbie Barrett. She may have ended up into it, but it was still invasive and wrong. Not to play ITS OKAY BECAUSE HE DID IT, its not, I just find the view of the two characters very interesting.

I've always thought the way this show has been able to do that with those characters is one of its greatest strength.

Kiran wrote:I also think its a credit to both Jon Hamm and Vincent Kartheiser's performances that we see how much personality and charm play a role in that. Pete and Don are not that different. They both are horrible people. We just forget the horrible things Don has done easier, or expect more of him because he is handsome, he is charming, and his struggle is much more poetic. And I think thats truthful. If someone has a better personality we give them more leeway (Roger Sterling is the biggest example of that, though I think hes just kind of a personal fuck up. He doesn't try to be awful). Pete always comes across as a try hard weasel. So we view him differently. But Pete has not actually done anything objectively worse than Don has. Even when he coerced that poor nanny into having sex with him. Don assaulted Bobbie Barrett. She may have ended up into it, but it was still invasive and wrong. Not to play ITS OKAY BECAUSE HE DID IT, its not, I just find the view of the two characters very interesting.

Absolutely. I think it implicates the audience in a way that's very clever. We see Don yelling at his wife for whorishly pretend making out on a soap opera and then going home to fuck his mistress, and we're like "You asshole" but then he does some awesome ad pitch and we're like "Oh DON, you rogue, you're so good at what you do, here take these panties." (Maybe it's just me.) While with Pete he tries to do the exact same stuff that Don does and we're like "Oh, give it up, you little shit." While the dickishness levels of the two characters are, really, pretty similar. Pete just does not Have It. Don Has It. We want to forgive Don because he's charming and sexy and he's Don Motherfucking Draper. (Even though he actually isn't Don Motherfucking Draper, a whole other issue -- his assured/natural/effortless persona is actually the result of a painful metamorphosis.) We don't want to forgive Pete because, yeah, he's a try-hard weasel. It's one of the things I think the show does really well. Perhaps it's a little heavy-handed, but I think Pete chubbing up and losing his hair is just another example. Don still has amazing hair and looks fabulous despite being older than Pete and drinking and smoking and brooding himself to death. Pete just can't catch a break.

Completely agree, Kiran. That's what I love about this show.

Matt Weiner was on Fresh Air last week, and he said that there is a lot of mirroring between characters this season, and I think Pete and Don is definitely a big one. They do similar things, but get absolutely different reactions.

(Oh, and that interview addresses the thing with the empty elevator shaft from last season that gave rise to so much discussion. He explains what he was trying to do, and points out that if he dropped Don down an elevator shaft, he'd have a mob come after him to kill him so this will not happen. lol)

I think the acting that was done in the scene between Pete and Trudy on their phone call scene was pretty outstanding. They both showed that underlying love for each other and you could see Brie have those moments of almost giving in and then steeling herself against Pete and his advances and then Kartheiser almost deflating at the end of the phone call. For two people who weren't even in the same room, it was excellently done.

Yes agreed. As much as I love that Trudy kicked him out and she can do SO much better, a part of me always wants Pete and Trudy to work it out because it is clear, despite everything they do love each other, and when they are on, they are a good team. But my God she can do better.

I actually think thats another contrast between Don and Pete. I think their wives are the two most purely good people this show. Are they perfect or angels? No, God no. But they are genuinely kind. And I think that Pete and Don recognize that and in them see something lacking in themselves. I think the reasons they cheat are different though. I think Pete generally cheats to deal with his own inferiority complex (look hot lady is that into me, I'm totally powerful and awesome!), and in the cases of Peggy and Alexis Bledel's characters because there were genuine feelings there and because he saw a kindred spirit in a way (in particular due to his own latent sadness and displacement). I think Don cheats because he marries women he thinks he should marry (Megan, who is gorgeous and young, and kind, and so good to his kids, or Betty who at the time was a beautiful main line, educated princess who was "happy all the time") and then bangs women he actually is into. More complicated women who are actually like him, versus the Don he wishes he was. But even Don's cheating is more attractive because of this and the women he chooses, whereas Pete chooses for the most part, hot women that make him feel better about himself.

And WHAT WAS UP WITH THOMAS MAPOTHER

Tom Cruise was in this episode? Poor William!

biakbiak wrote:

And WHAT WAS UP WITH THOMAS MAPOTHER

Tom Cruise was in this episode? Poor William!

Hee hee, whoops! That guy is always getting upstaged, even in Snarkfest posts. Sorry, Mapothster.

The Paul Newman speaking at an advertising awards ceremony set up seemed so random to me that I started to wonder if something like that had actually happened and that Weiner drew from it for that scene. Apparently it happened, and happened pretty much exactly as it was portrayed. Truth is stranger than fiction.

I always forget that Pete is surprisingly progressive, particularly when it comes to race. It's a nice bit of continuity, and a good reminder that even if you're on the right side of history, you're not necessarily a nice person. I have to go back and watch, but was something up with the editing in the scene between him and Harry? I could have sworn that they switched positions a couple of times in that scene.

I can sympathize with Bobby Draper and his "The Yellow Wallpaper" moment. Non-aligned wallpaper patterns drive me insane. I'm pretty sure Bobby got more lines in the episode than all the past Bobby Drapers combined.

Don is such a mess. His confession about his feelings for his kids wasn't exactly shocking, but it's still surprising to see him actually express that. The lighting and makeup made Jon Hamm look so haggard in that scene. With all the death themes this season, the final shot of Don standing on a balcony had to parallel MLK standing on a balcony when he was shot. Plus, there was Roger's throwaway comment about his LSD buddy "talking him off a ledge."

I loved the Realtor's comment to Peggy about the apartment's value going up when the Second Avenue subway is finished. Still waiting on that!

I pretty much want to save the gif of Stan giggling in the background during William Mapother's speech and drag it out for appropriate occasions. THE BEST EVER.

So...Sterling Cooper Draper Cutler and Chaough? SCDCC? That's becoming a bit of a mouthful.

True to fashion, Mad Men hits the midseason point and starts to pick up steam. I saw the merger coming way ahead of time but that didn't make the men's realization any less delicious to watch.

I know Mad Men has some cold, despicable characters, but I find Marie to be just awful. She's so cold and angry and bitter, I see no redeeming qualities as her. I know Megan's flawed too, but she's generally pretty sweet and I don't get where she gets that from either parent. Poor kid. No wonder she found her way to Don. I don't know, there's some weird part of me that was happy to see their passion rekindled, and is somehow rooting for them. Don't ask me why, I can't explain it myself.

I know Peggy was crushed because a) her moment to "celebrate" with Teddy was short-lived and b) she'd escaped being under Don's thumb only to end up right there again. But lordy! I am so glad to have them back under one roof for my pleasure!

Pete is self-destructing. He's a slimy character but it's painful to watch. Poor Trudy. She deserves so much better.

And poor Joan. That's all. I'm glad she got angry. Although I feel a little bad that Don was the only one who raged on her behalf and yet got the brunt of her anger, and yet also he never asked her what she wanted. Sigh. But I miss their friendship. Was I the only one scared for a sec that Pete and Joan would kiss?

I'm assuming that Kenny (my fave) went after Joan to make sure she was all right. Because he's that lovely.

For your .gifing pleasure...Pete falls down the stairs

Oh, Peggy...back working for Don again, attracted to her older married boss and a big fan of Bobby Kennedy...

Danielle Panabaker played Roger's flight attendant.

My TV is crappy and old, so I have to rewatch this, but please tell me those were multiple copies of Sterling's Gold in Roger's travel bag.

This was my favorite of the season. I love a good Mad Men caper.

They were! Roger is a gem.

I adore Marie. She's awful, yes. But a majority of these people are at least periodically awful - I mean, is Kenny the only one who's decent all of the time? If I'd gotten my hopes up for a nice dinner and then some Sterling in the sack afterward, and had nothing but that suburbanite's prattling, I'd also consider swigging straight from the Bordeaux when I got home.

I don't like Joan and Pete conspiring. How is he totally forgiven for pimping her out and Don gets sniped at?

I don't like Joan and Pete conspiring. How is he totally forgiven for pimping her out and Don gets sniped at?

Because Pete gave her a say in the matter. Don just lost them a huge account because his ego couldn't take it and that could have extreme consequences on her livelihood. Even though they didn't tell the other partners about going public initially, they would have at least consulted them about it before it happened, so I had no problem with Pete and Joan's taking Don to task. I particularly liked Pete's "don't pretend you had a plan," when he tried to use the Chevy thing as a way of getting him off the hook.

I'm embarrassed to say it, but I'm shipping Peggy and Ted. I really find him rather adorable. And with him or without, Peggy needs to get out of that horrible new apartment and away from Abe and his sad underwear. Also, imaginary Ted reading Emerson's Something (bwah!) in a smoking jacket? Awesome.

God, Vincent Kartheiser just sells me 100% on everything Pete does. He's a petulant little jerkface, but I adore him utterly because he's so real. Allison Brie's Disney eyes at the end got me, too. Way to ruin her father for her, jerkface.

Peggy looked like she'd swallowed her tongue when she walked into Chaough's office at the end. Don's like the abusive ex who suddenly wants to play nice. How mortifying.

I do find it fascinating that Joan and Pete were both so irate with Don for making an arbitrary decision about the fate of the company on his own... when that's exactly what they (and Burt) were doing with the IPO.

But they weren't taking the company public without Don's knowledge. Pete and Joan even discussed that Don might not be on board when they brought the plan to him but they were still going to do it. They were getting all the information to present the plan to Don and Roger. Also, at least in their case there was a majority of the partners and were doing it to help the firm; whereas Don just didn't like Herb or his demands and made an arbitrary decision that cost the firm one of its biggest clients.

Given that he is played by James Wolk, I imagine there are plans afoot for Bob, but I would love it if he never did anything but randomly be in the background of scenes offering people the two coffees he buys every morning.

I mostly agree, but Herb was already pissed and ready to walk because Roger had shirked the meeting (to court Chevy), and Pete did his part in a-bombing the IPO.

The AV Club made the point it was just another way to emphasize how Pete wants to be Don, but never will be, that he and his father and law didn't have MAD, because that requires mutual respect something Pete rarely experiences, or evinces in anyone. Except maybe Burt.

I do love Peggy/Ted, it won't end well I guess, but I'd kind of like to see it anyway.

Not to defend the indefensible Don, but I thought they were expecting to get fired, more or less, at that meeting. Don's transgression was merely to not cave to a bad client (which would be bad for the company). Roger might have done a better job of handling, but even he might well have decided it was time to cut and run. As for the IPO, they were indeed doing it without Don's knowledge, but perhaps they didn't think his input was necessary. Business decision versus Creative. Anyway they don't need his permission, they just outvote him. Creative certainly would have objected; answering to a board is no fun. (And as we saw, Don doesn't answer to anybody.) Though Joan's lecture seemed to penetrate, however distorted the response.

I feel bad for Bert. Decent fellow, rare enough, oddball but still sharp. He should be the one to deal with Don, he's done it before. And Robert Morse is a riot.

I love Bob and his cheerfully menacing coffee lurking. It cracks me up.

I wonder if Pete's fall was planned or if Kartheiser just slipped and they left it in because it was perfect Pete--even in the midst of being righteously pissed he just can't avoid making an ass of himself. (If you look you can totally see the actress who plays Roger's secretary trying and failing to keep from laughing.)