Game of Thrones

That's basically what I was curious about, whether this was coming from GRRM or from the showrunners. I'd heard that Dany's wedding night was consensual in the books, and of course the Internet exploded about Jamie and Cersei.

I was also weirded out by the background rape last week. I feel like rape scenes are becoming a shorthand way to convey "This is an unpleasant person/situation" and that is NOT OK. I'm not going to even try to get into the GoT Comic-Con panel this year but I hope someone raises this in the Q&A portion.

Corollary: I am also starting to notice how often shows (not just this one) depict women who openly enjoy sex as either predatory sexual creatures (Oberyn's companion) or batshit crazy (Lysa). Not that I'm expecting a lot of healthy consensual sex in Westeros but I'm starting to notice how absent that is in pop culture lately. I may be selectively seeing things, I'm not sure yet.

That said, there is some particularly gruesome violence towards women from the books that they've cut from the show and that I'm glad they did. The one that I especially hated was the

Spoiler:

Nothing in the show has quite hit that level of disturbing for me.

Matinee wrote:Marital rape is largely discussed as negative even if the characters do not necessarily see it that way - it is presented in a way that we supposed to sympathize with Dany and Cersei when they are discussing/experiencing it (not to mention the discussion of the relationship between the old king and queen - clearly most saw him as behaving badly). The book mentions do not seem as "ooh, does the SHOCK you" as the show. I feel like in the books, rape is portrayed more sympathetically to the victim rather than what on screen often seems blatant attempt to shock or present quick, cheap characterization.

I guess I feel like the problematic sex in the book is presented with awareness that it's problematic, whereas in the series, the creators often don't seem to properly gauge viewer reactions and interpretations.

No, that's true about the marital rape--it's not a criminal offense, but everyone seems to see having sex on your wedding night as basically mandatory. That Tyrion and Sansa don't is notable, and he is regularly advised to just rape her. But you're right that in general I think forcible sex is seen as negative, and the text expects you to judge the perpetrators and feel for the victims.

But at the same time, I wouldn't say that all the problematic sex is presented with awareness--there are tons of consent issues everywhere, and I think they are often ignored or presented as romantic. The Dany and Drogo stuff is pretty effed up--yes, she consented on her wedding night, but he does things later that she doesn't want. She was 13 so falling in love with him is ehhhhhhhh, but I think we're meant to see it as a good relationship. And I do, but only by ignoring the gross stuff.

Carrie Ann wrote:But at the same time, I wouldn't say that all the problematic sex is presented with awareness--there are tons of consent issues everywhere, and I think they are often ignored or presented as romantic. The Dany and Drogo stuff is pretty effed up--yes, she consented on her wedding night, but he does things later that she doesn't want. She was 13 so falling in love with him is ehhhhhhhh, but I think we're meant to see it as a good relationship. And I do, but only by ignoring the gross stuff.

I honestly don't remember how Dany and Drogo's relationship evolved in the book cuz I read it about 3 years ago. I recall her being understandably fearful of him at first, but on the show, it's condensed into her basically learning how to sexually please him and then they're all of a sudden in love. How does it actually happen in the book?

I can't remember exactly how it went, but for awhile after the first night (which, yeah, Drogo waited for her to consent and she did), he would just sort of come home and take her by force from behind, causing her a lot of pain, until she took back control and then it all became mutual thereafter.

Ahhh, so romantic. I know it's meant to be realistic and therefore not exactly pretty and sunshiny, but all the horrors the women go through at the hands of men makes me wish they'd slaughter the guys in their sleep.

A really thoughtful piece that I think could add something to this conversation was on the LA Review of Books Dear Television blog today:

I have two sons and there is no question in my mind that navigating their manhood in this world will be difficult for them. Patriarchal norms truly do fuck us all. Nevertheless, as a woman, I have little patience for shows like True Detective. Consider the difference between True Detective’s dead women and Game of Throne’s portrayal, last week, of the women in Craster’s Keep being actively assaulted by Karl and his mutinous crows. Which scene “goes too far”? For me, the scene in Game of Thrones was specifically about the revulsion and horror of men pushing women’s experience into the background. It was gut wrenching to watch, but I would rather encounter that terror directly. At least, while it was happening, Game of Thrones was in no way asking me to admire some dude’s acting.

whatthedeuce wrote:I'm just plain tired of seeing a topless woman in what feels like every damn episode, but maybe that's because I binge-watched all the eps in a 2-week period. Is it true that the actress playing the prostitute, Ros, was let go because she complained about not wanting to do nude scenes anymore? I read that in comments at ONTD, but people over there are insane so I never know what to believe.

There was an article out there in the ether that said that one of the actresses in the cast was refusing to do nude scenes any more, but was coy about who, exactly, it was. The one I read, at least, was all, "Might be Natalie Dormer, might be Emilia Clarke, might be someone else. Can't really say." It certainly could be Esmé Bianco, who played Ros, in hindsight seems more likely. Especially since she, more than ANYONE else, was just The Naked Girl on the show, and I can imagine THAT would get old fast.

whatthedeuce wrote:Ahhh, so romantic. I know it's meant to be realistic and therefore not exactly pretty and sunshiny, but all the horrors the women go through at the hands of men makes me wish they'd slaughter the guys in their sleep.

Given that it didn't happen that often in history, Henry VIII was also the king of bad breaker uppers, there was at least some Stockholm Syndrome that took over in arranged marriages and GRRM has taken some swipes at fairy tale chivalry what with Robert and Rhaegar's obsession with Lyanna and Loras liking Renly more than the ladies.

I don't see it as an endorsement as women as property and in fact see Dany's abolitionist stance as her being something of a slave herself.

I agree. I think there's more room for nuance in the books than on the show, but I still feel uncomfortable with the seeming need to rape or threaten rape on almost every single female character. Particularly when so many of them are children. Anyway, that discussion probably belongs more in the book thread. But on the show, I think the problem is that the creators just seem to truly not understand rape culture or what consent means, and they have little concern about that ignorance. I hope that the feedback this season will affect how they handle this in future seasons, but I'm not counting on it.

Rape is an adjunct of war and slavery but There's been rather a lot of it. I liked the mutineer subplot, but just showing one of Craster's wives with a black eye would have got the point across.

Reminds me of Buzz Bisinger commenting on the movie Friday Night Lights the movie where he thought it was important to actually use an N-Bomb, because it was something he heard often there, but he limited to a couple times because he thought the movie going public couldn't take hearing it as often as he did while in Odessa.

So what exactly does a battle by combat entail? Does he have to fight Jamie? Or Tommen? Or someone that they pick? I feel like I'm missing something pretty important here. Haha.

I think he chooses a champion and Cersei chooses a champion for her side. I'm fairly sure Tyrion will choose Jamie...but who will Cersei choose (it will be very awkward if she chooses Jamie as well!)

It's how Tyrion got out of trouble back in season one when Caitlyn did a citizens arrest on him and took him up to Crazy Lisa's house. They did a trial by combat and that's how he met Bronn. Bronn beat Lisa's guy so that means the gods declared Tyrion not guilty.

Yeah, how's Jaime doing with his one hand? Probably not great still? So, maybe Tyrion will request Bronn as his champion, Cersei will request Jaime (knowing he can't really fight), which means one brother will have to live and the other will end up dead. Or Tyrion chooses Jaime and if Jaime loses, there would be no more Lannisters...

Also, Dinklage killed that last scene!

Dinklage killed that last scene!

He so did. I had chills.

DAMMIT SHAE. I have to wonder - was it all a lie? Did she never love Tyrion at all? Or is she lying now to save her own ass? Poor Tyrion.

My husband and I think we have it figured out (neither of us have read the books).

At first we were thinking Tyrion and Jamie would somehow be pitted against each other, but I can't see how that would end up happening logistically; there's no way Tyrion would fight his own battle, right? Then we were thinking Jamie and Bronn. But really, who would even risk Jamie as a champion at this point anyway? He's not at his best, and none of Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion actually want to lose him. So THEN we were thinking, what if Oberyn comes into this somehow? Oberyn against Jamie? Oberyn against Bronn? No. Oberyn against THE MOUNTAIN, who is a far more logical champion for the Crown. My guess is once the Crown chooses The Mountain, Oberyn is going to volunteer to champion for Tyrion, just to have his chance at revenge at last. This is my prediction.

However, what I don't even understand is how anyone can actually declare trial by combat for any situation. At what point are you allowed to do this? If Tyrion's champion dies, does he die too? Wouldn't basically everyone at all times declare trial by combat, because... well, why the hell not?

I think the question is are you "connected" enough to have a champion, and good one at that? The Crown is always going to have the upper hand there most like, since they are the most powerful and most connected.

Like say Sansa was on trial along with Tyrion. The Hound is gone so she's shit out of luck, someone would have to step forward for her and who exactly would do that? And even IF the Hound had stuck around, his willingness to die for her, given his position on love/chivalry and all that crap would be mighty big question mark.

So it's really only a good option for people who come from powerful Houses, the rich, and/or those who are well known/loved by the people.

Heh. I saw a cartoon on reddit of Peter Dinklage with a dropped mic and an Emmy. I must say, the televised version of this scene played out way better than it did in my head when I originally read it. If they do the trial by combat according to the book version of events, people are gonna go crazy.

'kay just a reminder no reference to the books should really happen in here, even in passing.

Kookla wrote:So THEN we were thinking, what if Oberyn comes into this somehow? Oberyn against Jamie? Oberyn against Bronn? No. Oberyn against THE MOUNTAIN, who is a far more logical champion for the Crown. My guess is once the Crown chooses The Mountain, Oberyn is going to volunteer to champion for Tyrion, just to have his chance at revenge at last. This is my prediction.

That does make a certain amount of sense, especially since Oberyn was the only one asking questions, and seemed to be seeing through the haze of bullshit that was the trial. (Besides Margery, who KNOWS it's bullshit. And did she tell her brother? Because he's got a "this seems like bullshit" look on his face the whole time as well.)

80s remix of the Game of Thrones main theme!

I could feel my heart beating through my chest. And then I almost screamed. Oh man that was intense and it sucked balls.

I knew it was coming and it was still terrifying. I spent the last three minutes of that scene with my face behind my hands, and I'm pretty sure my pulse is still elevated. Poor Oberyn. Poor Ellaria. Poor Tyrion.

Loved Sansa; she played that beautifully.

I'm not remembering a lot of light moments, but Jaime's reaction shots during the duel cracked me up.

Best light(ish) moment: Arya laughing hysterically when they arrive at the Eyrie only to find out Lysa is dead. She's unhinged, but also adorable?

Ugh, the scene with Oberyn was amazing, much better than I ever pictured it in the books. And of course devastating, no matter how I braced myself for it. (On a ghastly note: can skulls...really...do that? I'm not sure what happened there physiologically.)