Re: Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

emrie Mon May 04, 2015 1:12 am

So, given at least two (possibly three) moments of major exposition in this episode, can we assume that R+L = J?

**blixie** Mon May 04, 2015 9:58 am

Spoiler bars are not required in here especially for something that is essentially still speculation. Having said that I think it's the only 100% certain lock of the books.

So, I guess they want Danny, feeling the loss of her closest advisors, to make her more open to the overtures of Tyrion/Varys?

Loved the introduction of Ebara and the sand Snakes, and the really nice moment when Jamie sees Tarth and gets verklempt, but the MVP of the episode was Bronn.

ulkis Mon May 04, 2015 7:23 pm

emrie wrote:So, given at least two (possibly three) moments of major exposition in this episode, can we assume that R+L = J?

I hope so! I don't really care about the Rhaegar part but I like the idea of Jon being Lyanna's son.

and the really nice moment when Jamie sees Tarth and gets verklempt

awwwww. I don't super ship Jamie/Brienne, but that gets to me.

Fiammetta Sun May 10, 2015 11:59 pm

I enjoyed the scenes in Valyria a great deal. Gives a sense of history, and Jorah and Tyrion being so awestruck as to launch into poetry was a nice touch.

It's amazing how little tolerance I have for the show-only subplots, like Missandei and Grey Worm, and even less for the Ramsay/Miranda sexing. It always feels like the show has a nudity quota it's trying to fill, when most of us would rather see actual plot development. All we needed was a scene of Miranda giving Sansa the serious side-eye before approaching her, and we would have gotten the point.

Carrie Ann Mon May 11, 2015 1:02 pm

I'm super-into Grey Worm/Missandei, but I think mostly because I hate the Meereen story in general, so they're the only part of it I want to see. And they are two good people, on a show of 90% shitheads, and that's refreshing for me. Plus, much pretty, wow.

Tyrion and Jorah in Valyria was so much better than every other part of the episode, for me. When the first stoneman stood up on that cliff, it was like something out of a horror movie. And the dragon flying overhead gave me goosebumps. All of their scenes were beautifully shot, felt full of emotion and atmosphere.

Sansa's scenes at Winterfell were similarly well-done, but I can't tell if the feeling of dread is coming from the filmmaking or just from my own sense of foreboding. I'm more and more concerned about her trajectory here, and there are a number of possible paths that would be show-killers for me. Fingers crossed, but I'm not feeling very hopeful right now.

**blixie** Mon May 11, 2015 1:59 pm

When the first stoneman stood up on that cliff, it was like something out of a horror movie.

Oh totally so CREEPY, and I was like dude they're going there yay! Was that a change about Jorah getting greyscale? I know Connington for sure did have it, but even if the stone man didn't touch Tyrion (which he did), Jorah most def did touch Tryion. So luck, prophecy, do I care? No.

This was the first time I've liked Mereen all season, I liked how we got to Dany marrying Hizdar, but boy howdy my brain was breaking down trying to remember which dude exactly is "betraying" her, I know it's Hizdar but without the 100 one "advisers" it's hard to understand how she ever trusts Hizdar, in the book she's young, confused in knowing who to trust, and simply makes a deal with Hizdar to bring peace to the city/lack of bloodshed. And also it's confusing because the detail about the mask wearers in the book they're loyal to Dany, but on the show they are supposed to represent Hizdar. OY. The sooner Tyrion is there to cut through all that crap the better.

So is Jon really going to go to Hardhome with Toramund? Is Sam going to go to the Citadel? If they are changing so much can we keep Maester Aemon alive for good?!

Carrie Ann Mon May 11, 2015 3:39 pm

blixie wrote:
When the first stoneman stood up on that cliff, it was like something out of a horror movie.

Oh totally so CREEPY, and I was like dude they're going there yay! Was that a change about Jorah getting greyscale? I know Connington for sure did have it, but even if the stone man didn't touch Tyrion (which he did), Jorah most def did touch Tryion. So luck, prophecy, do I care? No.

Jorah getting greyscale was a change--he seems to be taking the Connington role. The Tyrion part played like it did in the book, which was sort of ambiguous. The stone man touched him, but I think only on his clothes. And then he fell in the water and we don't know exactly what happened after. And yeah, Jorah touched him, but being so newly infected, and touching him (theoretically) only with parts of him that are not yet diseased...I think it will be sort of a looming threat for Tyrion, like in the book. Not sure how they're going to handle Jorah getting it though.

And your other questions about changes to the stories in Meereen and at the Wall? Not a clue.

Unlucky Bear Mon May 11, 2015 10:24 pm

Heh. When Grey Worm told her that he didn't want to die without seeing "Missandei of Naath," my best friend's boyfriend was like "WHOA WHO THE HELL IS THAT?!" He is.... not good with names.

The Dude Tue May 12, 2015 2:01 pm

One thing occurred to me about the character compression. Varys was taking Tyrion to Danarys, BUT in S1 he played an active attempt in the attempt on her life. So unless it's sold as a change of heart or Varys was really taking him to Aegon that's a big plot hole.

punzy Tue May 12, 2015 4:57 pm

I could see it as a change of heart. Varys is a practical man, and the current rulers of Westeros are pretty shit at it.

naughty zoot Tue May 12, 2015 5:07 pm

Varys' rationale for all his actions is that they're for the good and stability of the kingdom as a whole. I can understand his thinking that an unknown, untested 14 year old, female contender to the throne might not be necessary to have in the mix. In the meantime, Daenerys has shown what she's made of.

The Dude Wed May 13, 2015 12:42 pm

But the other shoe hasn't dropped with Varys yet. For someone across the Narrow Sea he's surprisingly loyal to the 7 Kingdoms.

dionneshea Mon May 18, 2015 1:12 am

FUCK YOU, GAME OF THRONES.

Fiammetta Mon May 18, 2015 2:37 am

Yeah, I don't know.

Alfie Allen was amaaaazing. And Sophie Turner, too, of course.

Are the Dorne scenes really necessary? The Sand Snakes fight scenes seemed so half-heartedly choreographed.

naughty zoot Mon May 18, 2015 11:54 am

Doesn't Ramsey treat his bride (pretend Arya) and Theon worse in the book than what happened in this episode?

**blixie** Mon May 18, 2015 12:28 pm

Yes, Jeyne Pool's fate is worse in the details, but my one caveat when they swapped the two characters was that they NOT have Sansa suffer the same fate. She is not a minor disposable character, who only exists to motivate fucking Theon to get his purely figurative balls back. She is a goddamn main character who is punished for attempting some agency in her situation with LF, and staring down Myranda, with rape and humiliation at the hands of the Boltons who killed her mother and her brother, the King.

I honestly thought the swap was meant to indicate the change in that story, but luckily I was spoiled that they were going there anyway.

Meanwhile I'm still irrationally aggravated that Cersei is being made to look like a bawse in KL, I'm sure Lancel will be the witness against her, but I'm just so tired of seeing her smug scheming paying off, at the same time the great majority of her "crimes" are being erased (not even Jaimie gets to be mad at her, cause he raped her).

I did love Arya in the hall of Faces, yeek, that was a great image. I don't hate Dorne plot, because I like the characters enough to forgive the bunch of dumb that went down in this episode.

jstilwe Mon May 18, 2015 2:47 pm

I ... I don't know. I really thought I would be done if Ramsey raped Sansa, but as the episode wore on and my dread for her grew, I realized that it would almost be a copout if he didn't. I love Arya and Sansa and want only good things for them, but given Ramsey's character and the general attitudes towards sex/rape/wives as property in Westeros, it would be crazy unrealistic for Sansa to get through all these marriages unscathed. I know it doesn't happen in the book, but in the context of the show, it made sense to me. It also filled me with rage and anger, but towards Ramsey and Littlefinger, not towards the showrunners; on the other hand, when Jaime raped Cersei, I was seriously pissed at the showrunners, because it made no sense and added absolutely nothing. Sansa's rape, while loathsome, makes sense within the story and raises the stakes even higher for her.

The show is dragging for me at the moment, but I think they're doing as well as can be expected in adapting the sprawl that is books 4 and 5. Also, I just wish they'd cut Dorne, because the show hasn't made me care about those characters in the least. I can only assume there will be future plot relevance, but for now it just feels like an excuse for Bronn and Jaime to go on a wacky adventure.

The Dude Mon May 18, 2015 3:11 pm

I'm still on the fence about the plot modification that put Sansa with the Boltons anyway. Roose is a sociopath, but did he think that was good idea putting her with Ramsey? I can get it if Baelish is just using her as a pawn and really doesn't care about her. He's Lord of the Riverlands and has control of the Vale so it looks like he's trying to get the North under his control now.

In regards to Ramsey given his propensities the only thing that will satisfy me at this point is flaying something of his. Have Theon peel that thing like a carrot. Brienne is still out there. And damn you GRRM for not writing!

The Dorne fight was a problem because there weren't any stakes, the only possibility was where Marcella got her ear cut off.

Meanwhile I'm still irrationally aggravated that Cersei is being made to look like a bawse in KL, I'm sure Lancel will be the witness against her, but I'm just so tired of seeing her smug scheming paying off, at the same time the great majority of her "crimes" are being erased (not even Jaimie gets to be mad at her, cause he raped her).

We already know her uppance will come in some form and I think the episode made clear that she's antagonized Olena whose food and money they need. The Queen of Thornes is a hell of a lot more canny than Cersei.

I assume Arya will use the girl she killed as an identity now.

YanaMei Mon May 18, 2015 3:54 pm

Excellent post over at The Mary Sue, including a clear articulation of why I was apprehensive about the conflation of Sansa/Jeyne when it was announced, over and above the rape scenario: http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/

Before we dive into why we felt this was a choice which would cause us to stop promoting the show, allow us to say something very important: rape is not a necessary plot device. Really think about that before shouting “creative freedom” in our direction, please.

The show has creators. They make the choices. They chose to use rape as a plot device. Again.

In this particular instance, rape is not necessary to Sansa’s character development (she’s already overcome abusive violence at the hands of men); it is not necessary to establish Ramsay as a bad guy (we already know he is); it is not necessary to prove “how bad things were for women” (Game of Thrones exists in a fictional universe, and we already know it’s exceptionally patriarchal). Rape here, like in all instances, is not a necessary story-driving device.

[...book plot summary...]

Let’s talk about what this means for Sansa, now. Many assume Sansa’s current plot is leading her to become “The Queen in the North.” Will she rise to power in that way? That seems like a given at this point, but I don’t care. Why? Because Game of Thrones just took her journey, and put it into the hands of Theon.

Using rape as the impetus for character motivations is one of the most problematic tropes in fiction. Rarely is it ever afforded the careful consideration it deserves. Was there more gravity given to the act on Game of Thrones than in the past on the series? I would say yes; however, it took Sansa from her growing place of power, cut her off at the knees, and put the focus on Theon’s ordeal, instead.

(bolding mine)

Agent Sculder Mon May 18, 2015 6:11 pm

Yeah, when I heard that the show was going to be diverging from the books when it came to Sansa's story I was also concerned because there was no way for her to be anywhere around the Boltons without horrible things happening to her. Not that she's had it great, but adding being a rape survivor to everything else was NOT a good idea. Especially since it appears to be in service of rehabilitating Theon. I can understand WHY the show did what it did, but I would have hoped the showrunners would have done better.

I know many people who have read the books have praised the changes in plot, and for the most part I don't take issue with them. Up until this year, that is. Speeding up Tyrion's journey is fine. Getting rid of Bran for a season makes total sense. But changing Sansa's journey? Sending Jaime and Bronn to Dorne?

I'm starting to think that Benioff & Weiss have decided they're just going to go their OWN way with the story even though GRRM told them the end game.

But hey, if the show has managed to convey one message it's this: don't get married, EVER!

Unlucky Bear Mon May 18, 2015 11:17 pm

Now I'm just hoping the season ends with Sansa killing ALL the Boltons and setting herself up as Queen in the North, fuck this "wardeness" bullshit.

ulkis Wed May 20, 2015 1:03 pm

at this point I'm only in this for Jon I admit so my reaction was just really to roll my eyes. I think if there was a sense that any of this was going somewhere people would be less annoyed.

I'm guessing they cut all of Theon and Asha/Yara's uncles and all that Iron Island stuff?

The Dude Wed May 20, 2015 2:18 pm

Balon is a potentially satisfying death, but I can live without the Kingsmoot shit.

Carrie Ann Wed May 20, 2015 9:22 pm

I hate everyone in the Iron Isles stuff, aside from Yara/Asha I guess, so I'd be perfectly happy if they ignore that stuff completely.

And I agree that if we knew, for example, that Sansa was going to kill Ramsay and that someday soon she will rule the North, I think I'd feel less furious about this storyline. But because we have no idea where any of this is going--and because the smart money is on "nowhere satisfying"--it's just kind of maddening.

ulkis Wed May 20, 2015 10:17 pm

oh, I'm perfectly fine with them cutting out all the Iron Island stuff as well.

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