Game of Thrones

I think using rape as a plot device is just really dangerous ground for show-runners on any show. Objectively and morally speaking, it never makes sense to me that people get more upset by rape than murder, but it seems to regularly happen when it occurs as a plot point, which makes it a really difficult subject to work into 'entertainment' in a way that doesn't enrage and upset people. I suspect this is because rape and sexual assault directly affect so many people in the real world, whereas murder and other crimes commonly depicted in movies/tv that make for flashy plot twists maybe don't affect as many?

Anyway, to Blixie's point...I just think the nature of of tv is that charismatic actors make you root for them, despite the heinous stuff their character does. Visual media with actors can create a more, I don't know what the term would be, irrational? emotional experience than reading does. I mean, Tywin is absolutely appalling and deserves a million painful deaths (he's certainly the worst of the family, morally speaking), but I love Charles Dance and want him to stick around the show forever because he's so watchable. I doubt most viewers registered Jamie killing his ?cousin? as much worse than all his other killings (maybe that's just me, though, I dunno) and it's been a few years since Jamie attempted to kill Bran, which is a long time in tv-viewing-terms. This does really make me wonder how certain big plot points are gonna play out the rest of the season, though...given the reaction to this one scene, I'm starting to wonder if the show will lose a ton of viewers by the end of this season. (need to discuss in other thread, when I have the energy).

queenofdenile wrote:Maybe they saw how popular Jaime/Brienne immediately became and wanted to throw a wrench into Jaime as a result?

And I dunno, maybe I'm putting more faith in the intelligence in the average viewer than the show runners are, but Jaime saving Brienne on more than one occasion and developing a BFF relationship with her does not make he forget that he pushed Bran out of a window (though I do think that by losing his hand, he received his karmic payback for turning Bran the climber into Bran the cripple).

I really do agree that Tywin is the one they most need to throw a wrench into because I'm honestly alarmed by how much of a "badass" he's referred to as many a viewer, when he is the coldest Lannister of all, and a big reason why Jaime/Cersei/Joffrey have the bad qualities they do is BECAUSE OF TYWIN.

That's so funny, because I was just pointing out my own irrationality about Tywin. I like to think of myself as an intelligent viewer (LOL) and I am fully aware of the lack of logic in my own emotional responses to things.

They knew it would be perceived as rape, and decided to get so far out in front if it via Sepinwall, Graves, and NCW to literally mansplain that it is totes okay babies, she wanted it too!

Because it was rape. It was not "rape/not rape." She says no, stop. Don't do this. Jaimie says "I don't care." I don't care where her legs ended up. Leg position is not consent. I defy Graves (or any other man) to find a difference between consensual leg position and non-consensual leg position. Once the penis is in, there aren't many places to go with your legs. Like many others, I am ok with the "fact" of the rape and that it happened in the context of the show. I am *not* ok with Graves running around saying that leg position = consent. That's just bullshit. I also don't care about Jaime's motivations. If, in his mind, she can't say "no" because she is a part of hm, that's no different from any number of other excuses that rapists might have in their own minds. She can't say "no" because she was drunk. She can't say "no" because she's my wife. She can't say "no" because she wore fuck-me boots and a miniskirt.

If the *intent* of the scene was to do the soapy "this is so wrong but I want you anyway" sort of thing, it was an utter failure. The scene that they filmed was a rape.

I think the 'rape/not rape?' by the coffin thing is more of an example of clumsy film-making than anything. The show creators obviously knew it would be controversial, because they  talked a bit about Jamie going very dark (so I expected that the scene might be less obviously consensual in the book, and I wasn't very surprised), but I think it's crap that they're all, "well it wasn't REALLY rape" now. On the other hand, the script might indicate more ambiguity than what we saw on screen, so possibly the show-runners mean what they are saying. I also think the long shots and the tons of clothing kind of obscured what was going on, in terms of the yes/no dynamic. Or the director didn't correctly direct the actors in a way that made it clear. My impression was it was a little yes/no, but appeared clearly to be rape by the end. I'd have to watch again to be sure, which I'm not dying to do. I suspect this might be an issue of poor execution of the scene, rather than intent.

Wenchsenior, you basically took the words right out of my mouth (er, hands), since I had come back here to articulate this exact thing. And, oddly, my irritation stems more from this than from any moral outrage I have. I'm more exasperated at the directors, in that I KNOW they can direct a great show. I know this is a show filled with both ridiculous extremes and also more subtle nuance in the dialogue, etc. So I'm irritated that they messed up their intentions in directing the scene, since I expect better from them. I realize I'm sounding like a schoolteacher here, but my reaction is kind of like, "Unacceptably sloppy assignment when I know you have more potential than this - redo until you get it right!" Which they obviously can't do.

If the *intent* of the scene was to do the soapy "this is so wrong but I want you anyway" sort of thing, it was an utter failure.

Yeah, totally.

It's too bad this is overshadowing an otherwise pretty good episode. Tywin getting started on Tommen right away and his dismissive, "Yeah, let's just forget your brother Joffrey was ever a thing" attitude was awesome. <--- I am also blinded for my love of watching Tywin, wenchsenior.

Wenchsenior, you basically took the words right out of my mouth (er, hands), since I had come back here to articulate this exact thing. And, oddly, my irritation stems more from this than from any moral outrage I have. I'm more exasperated at the directors, in that I KNOW they can direct a great show. I know this is a show filled with both ridiculous extremes and also more subtle nuance in the dialogue, etc. So I'm irritated that they messed up their intentions in directing the scene, since I expect better from them. I realize I'm sounding like a schoolteacher here, but my reaction is kind of like, "Unacceptably sloppy assignment when I know you have more potential than this - redo until you get it right!" Which they obviously can't do.

Yes, I agree so much with both of you. I know it's a hot-button issue for many, but for me I'm not as bothered by a rape scene as content. It was more that it seemed like a terrible bungling of a rather important set-piece for two major characters, as a turning point of their relationship. They've done such a great job overall in adapting the books, often even making them better - why would they screw this up so royally? (pardon the pun)

What bothers me is I'm sure there's going to be some sentiment of "Well it's Cersie, she's a bitch anyway", which is a much worse message.

How adorable was Pod when he was presented to Brienne? "I'm going on an ADVENTURE! A quest to save the maiden fair!" And then his poor face fell when Brienne didn't want him.

They really departed from the books a lot in this episode, but I don't mind.

I really wish they hadn't changed that scene between Cersei and Jamie because there were so many positive Jamie moments last night and all I could think of was him raping her.

I'm just blocking it out and telling myself it was a dream sequence. It was a bad choice by the show and full of bad messages, just repeat to yourself it's just a show and I should really just relax.

I have also chosen to completely ignore it. Lalalala didn't happen!

Funnily enough, I thought it worked for the show to make the audience feel more conflicted. This is redemption, but not straight up redemption. We're meant to be confused by how we feel, because in this episode I think we're supposed to really, really want to see Jamie as good. But it's hard.

Yay, Craster daughter/wife! Yay, Brienne and Poderick! Yay, Hodor!

Poor Sansa. Out of the crazy, into the crazier...

Sorry about the sapphires Locke.

How long has it been since we last saw Robin? Three years? The kid hasn't changed - which makes him even creepier.

Damn, if I had a Moon Door, I'd keep the thing CLOSED.

Matinee wrote:Poor Sansa. Out of the crazy, into the crazier...

She does seem to go from the frying pan to the fire doesn't she? Poor Sansa is right.

I know that we saw Lysa and the moon door before but I'm blanking. What was the context?

It was S1 after Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion she took him to her sister and The Eyerie, where he was threatened with the Moon Door.

blixie wrote:It was S1 after Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion she took him to her sister and The Eyerie, where he was threatened with the Moon Door.

Thank you!

OK: How many episodes of this show have to contain rape or attempted rape? Are the books equally full of rape and attempted rape?

As someone who hasn't read the books, I'm still working through the ramifications of Littlefinger being behind the original series of events that pulled Ned Stark into the fray. Yikes.

Are the books equally full of rape and attempted rape?

There is a lot of rape/violence against women in the books, but I there have been three (that I can think of right now, there may be more) rapes/attempted rapes that the show writers have made up this season alone. I'm not happy with that at all, as I don't think it is necessary.

ActonBell wrote:

Are the books equally full of rape and attempted rape?

There is a lot of rape/violence against women in the books, but I there have been three (that I can think of right now, there may be more) rapes/attempted rapes that the show writers have made up this season alone. I'm not happy with that at all, as I don't think it is necessary.

The books are also less in your face about it. It's mentioned, but rarely in detail. The level on the show is really starting to upset me - the detail of showing, particularly last week at Castor's, is just gratuitous. Pretty sure I realized these were not nice men, what with the mutiny we saw, the skull cup, dead baby parts, impaled heads, etc - I didn't need the entire scene to be framed by 2? 3? women getting raped and one more looking bruised and beaten (and getting more beaten in the scene) during evil guy's monologue.

Especially since that part never happened in the book, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, I think rape is mentioned often, and is generally regarded as a fact of battle especially, but life in general. Marital rape isn't even a concept, it's just normal. But the depiction of rape is rare. And it feels more rare because there are thousands of pages of text, compared to 30+ hours of TV. I would say that there is a LOT of problematic sex in the books--maybe almost exclusively problematic, really--but the show has taken several instances of questionable sex and made it rape, or in these episodes, made something up completely that just so happened to include rape.

I'm just plain tired of seeing a topless woman in what feels like every damn episode, but maybe that's because I binge-watched all the eps in a 2-week period. Is it true that the actress playing the prostitute, Ros, was let go because she complained about not wanting to do nude scenes anymore? I read that in comments at ONTD, but people over there are insane so I never know what to believe.

Also, I just finished saying to my sis, "Well, at least Sansa's finally out of King's Landing," and then crazy Lysa started wringing her hand and accusing her of sleeping with Baelish. WTF?! That poor thing seriously can't catch a break!

I loved seeing Brienne soften up on Pod a bit after he humbly admitted that he killed someone to protect Tyrion. I get so attached to the friendships on this show really quickly. I hope Brienne comes to appreciate Podrick as much as Tyrion always did.

Carrie Ann wrote:Yeah, I think rape is mentioned often, and is generally regarded as a fact of battle especially, but life in general. Marital rape isn't even a concept, it's just normal. But the depiction of rape is rare. And it feels more rare because there are thousands of pages of text, compared to 30+ hours of TV. I would say that there is a LOT of problematic sex in the books--maybe almost exclusively problematic, really--but the show has taken several instances of questionable sex and made it rape, or in these episodes, made something up completely that just so happened to include rape.

Marital rape is largely discussed as negative even if the characters do not necessarily see it that way - it is presented in a way that we supposed to sympathize with Dany and Cersei when they are discussing/experiencing it (not to mention the discussion of the relationship between the old king and queen - clearly most saw him as behaving badly). The book mentions do not seem as "ooh, does the SHOCK you" as the show. I feel like in the books, rape is portrayed more sympathetically to the victim rather than what on screen often seems blatant attempt to shock or present quick, cheap characterization.

I guess I feel like the problematic sex in the book is presented with awareness that it's problematic, whereas in the series, the creators often don't seem to properly gauge viewer reactions and interpretations.