A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

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A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  blixie on Thu 8 Dec 2011 - 17:45

This is a place to discuss the book series w/o spoiler bars, but please remember it's only for the published books, and anything to do with Winds of Winter, like POV characters or chapter leaks, should still go behind a cut.

Really? Then what is the point of that character's introduction?

I do wonder how anyone would be able to verify that anybody is who they say they are, especially since practically all the people involved in killing the Targaryen babies are now dead. And like even if R+L=J, who could verify this? I suppose that's where the dragon/magic stuff will come into play

Basically I do agree that a great deal of ADWD was simply stalling/a distraction, but I also think thematically Martin is trying to make the point (over and over and over) that power is in the taking, in the political manipulation, in the might. The Targaryen's were conquering outsiders, Robert was a Usurper, so it doesn't really matter if Young Griff is a fake (and I do believe he IS a fake, a manufactured Vary's spare), so long as his team WINS.

My one issue with Davos is that he is sworn in loyalty to the person with not only the weakest "legitimate" claim to Iron Throne, but he is also just the weakest politicker as well who is mostly the tool of a confused if well-intentioned sorcersess.

In other news I know some people interpret ADWD as ruling out Benjen as Cold Hands, but sticking with this until he describes Benjen's death and shows me his skeleton body!

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  NewYorkStranger on Thu 8 Dec 2011 - 19:12

Basically I do agree that a great deal of ADWD was simply stalling/a distraction, but I also think thematically Martin is trying to make the point (over and over and over) that power is in the taking, in the political manipulation, in the might. The Targaryen's were conquering outsiders, Robert was a Usurper, so it doesn't really matter if Young Griff is a fake (and I do believe he IS a fake, a manufactured Vary's spare), so long as his team WINS.

I agree with you on this. Plus I'm definitely on the "Young Griff/Aegon is a fake being used by Varys to sow the seeds of chaos is Westeros" train.

Also, regarding verification of R+L=J, I believe at this point the only person who could possibly know the truth is Howland Reed. He went with Ned to find Lyanna in Dorne, and they were the only two survivors of whatever went down that day.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  queenofdenile on Thu 8 Dec 2011 - 20:47

I thought it was very interesting that Barristan Selmy remembered Ashara Dayne being lovesick over "Stark," but never said "Eddard." My mind immediately went to Brandon.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  tothemax on Mon 23 Jan 2012 - 13:09

Finished ADWD which, as pretty much everyone said, was kinda boring. Not as bad as AFFC but still pretty boring overall. I didn't even care when Jon was stabbed. Brienne is alive? OK, whatever.

This R+L=J theory is entirely new to me and I spent a good 10 minutes trying to figure out who the initials stood for.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  ulkis on Mon 23 Jan 2012 - 16:59

I didn't think of Rhaegar for Jon's father until I went online. I thought Lyanna was his mom right away, and then I thought Robert, but then I was like there'd be no reason to hide that, and then for half a second I thought Ned, heh.

My one issue with Davos is that he is sworn in loyalty to the person with not only the weakest "legitimate" claim to Iron Throne, but he is also just the weakest politicker as well who is mostly the tool of a confused if well-intentioned sorcersess.

That reminds me - does anyone think he's (Stannis) actually dead? I'm not sure.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  draco vulgaris on Mon 13 Feb 2012 - 22:26

ASOIAF-inspired valentines. I particularly like the Hodor one.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Unlucky Bear on Tue 14 Feb 2012 - 0:21

I like the Dothraki one. Those are seriously adorable.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  ulkis on Wed 28 Mar 2012 - 15:49

ugh, I'm watching clips for the new season and damn it, I think the books will end with Westeros united but I want the North to be independent :(

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  ulkis on Mon 2 Apr 2012 - 23:58

apparently they're going to say on the show that Stannis and his wife only had stillborn kids. Hope his daughter doesn't turn out to have an important role later on!

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  ulkis on Sat 14 Apr 2012 - 0:45

I'm wondering about something in Storm of Swords - is it a given that
Spoiler:
the announcement Rob made after he told Catelyn he wanted to legitimize Jon was in fact the legitimization? Or was it a fake-out? And since Rob is dead now would any of his decrees still count? Even if he didn't have authority as King in the North I assume he'd still have some as Lord of Winterfell.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Red Wolf on Sat 14 Apr 2012 - 1:34

Good point. Did he tell anyone else apart from Cat? Did he send a raven or a messenger to the Wall? I can't remember. If no one knows, I don't think it counts.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  blixie on Sat 14 Apr 2012 - 12:00

I read SoS over a year ago, but my impression was that no one still alive/free knows, but he definitely wrote it out, I think there was some question if the Raven got off with it to the Wall.

Also spoilers are fine in this thread for anything except Winds of Winter, that's the only info that needs to hidden.


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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  ulkis on Sat 14 Apr 2012 - 22:35

ok, thanks.

I hope Jon at least that Robb *wanted* to legitimize him, even if he didn't get to carry it out.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  bbridges on Sat 14 Apr 2012 - 22:54

I'm pretty sure Robb's message ended up with Maege Morment and she was bringing it somewhere. Possibly to Howland Reed?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  inversed on Mon 15 Apr 2013 - 13:52

Just finished A Dance with Dragons and up until maybe the last quarter of the book, I was kind of... bored? I love Tyrion but lord, his early chapters could have been cut. Same with Jon (though I don't love him as much) and Dany. And I had a hard time keeping track of all the new characters and the backstory and who's legit a Targaryen and who's not and I just kind of didn't care. So much of it just seemed like filler, even Arya's chapters, and she is 100% my favorite. Some of the twists felt like they were there just for the sake of being twisty, not because they actually advanced the plot. The only characters I actually felt really invested in were Theon, which is surprising, and, to a lesser degree, Davos. I hope that Winds of Winter is better.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Carrie Ann on Sun 23 Mar 2014 - 23:49

I finally finished A Dance With Dragons this week, at least a year and a half after starting the series. Ultimately, I found it and AFFC frustrating to read because there are SO many threads already dangling out there and so little is resolved or revealed. Every time a chapter was titled with a new character's name, I rolled my eyes and found myself getting irritated. Man, did I hate Quentyn Martell. What a waste of time that whole thing was.

At this point, unless the rest of the books are like ALL action, all resolution, there is just no way this is all going to be wrapped up. Which I find pretty ironic considering Martin's criticism of the ending of Lost.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Fiammetta on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 0:39

Yeah I'm almost not even mad that the show is going to pass the books, because at least Benioff and Weiss are motivated to finish it. Martin's meandering does nothing to disguise his evident writer's block.

I have to agree that the only character whose arc I ended up giving a damn about in ADwD was actually Theon. Everyone else seemed at a loss.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Red Wolf on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 6:49

GRRM has another story in an upcoming anthology. As much as I like these shorts, I'm finally motivated to say finish the bloody book! I'm not into the show, and think the story should finish where it began.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Carrie Ann on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 12:23

Just so much wheel spinning. We spent so much time with the Martells, who are fine, but what came out of that so far? A failed attempt to flee with Myrcella, so that can be skipped. Imprisoning all the daughters. A plan to send two of the Sand Snakes to Kings Landing to join the council. A failed journey to marry Daenerys and leave with the dragons, ending in death. I think about this from the TV show perspective--I would skip ALL of it, aside from Balon arriving with Clegane's head, which leads to them sending Nymeria and Tyene to Kings Landing with Myrcella. If Arianne is going to be important later, then fine, let's meet her too.

I was interested in Theon more because of Jeyne and Mance. But I seriously have a hard time reading about Ramsay at all, so those sections were tough for me.

Arya's story did drag on and on for not much payoff, but even she fared better than poor Sansa. I wasn't surprised not to see her in ADwD, but I would cut that Eyrie story way down for the show. Petyr kills Lysa and takes over, Lord Robert is gross, Petyr is gross, Sansa has to put up with it. That's basically it.

And as for the fate of my lovely Jon Snow, we don't think he's dead, right? Because. That's not OK. I was tricked before, about Bran and Rickon, and I need this to go that way.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  blixie on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 12:59

I actually still like AffC, I don't know why, but it didn't feel as pointless as ADWD, and I enjoyed the side trips more? The side trips that weren't Greyjoy related? And I'd still take a Greyjoy over Dysentery in the Desert: An Odyssey.


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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  The Dude on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 13:13

I wish Glacier RR Martin would just hire a ghost writer to pull the thing together. I've heard from some fantasy nuts that the Whell Of Time actually improved after Robert Jordan's death, so maybe a fresh perspective would help here too.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Carrie Ann on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 13:25

blixie wrote:I actually still like AffC, I don't know why, but it didn't feel as pointless as ADWD, and I enjoyed the side trips more? The side trips that weren't Greyjoy related? And I'd still take a Greyjoy over Dysentery in the Desert: An Odyssey.
That made me laugh pretty hard. I know I sound like I didn't, but I enjoyed all the books while I was reading them. But it's like, you hope it's leading somewhere. Somewhere like weddings where people die! Or actual battles! Or characters we know and care about interacting with each other! Instead, it felt like everyone was off on their own with new people, none of whom were that interesting or appealing. Like, when Tyrion ends up with Jorah, I was thrilled just because I KNOW HIM.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  queenofdenile on Mon 24 Mar 2014 - 17:16

ADWD had more characters that I was invested in and didn't have CRAZY CERSEI GOES CRAZY, but the Greyjoy chapters (save Theon's) were even more pointless in Dance than in Crows, and I thought Crows had better overall character development, especially for Jaime. And while the dour Ironborn bored the crap out of me, I did enjoy getting to know the Dornish.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  Carrie Ann on Thu 27 Mar 2014 - 16:38

Haven't read it yet (I haven't read the "Arianne" chapter either, which I didn't know about until I looked here), but a new chapter from Winds of Winter is up.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

Post  blixie on Thu 27 Mar 2014 - 16:48

Well apparently that chapter release crashed the site? SEE GEORGE. Get to finishing. I just read George's "plan" for how the show won't catch up to him, he wants them to do THREE SEASONS of ADWD. Oh fuck NO George. No. Nope. If Benioff and White and HBO know what's good for them they will not honor that request.

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