The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Kookla on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:54 pm

I revisited them this weekend, and did some reading about the ending online, and was struck by those who are angry at Katniss for being so passive at the end of the third novel - for staying in 12, raising children, not doing anything to help rebuild the world when she could have done so much. Personally, I'm a bit puzzled when I read theories like this because I think I have really different ideas about who Katniss really was throughout the three books. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

BTW, I don't think Mockingjay is a very good book (it jumps all over the place, and is not as easy to read, for one) but I think it's ending is actually its strength as opposed to its weakness (as many argue). And I think the ending says something very interesting about war for a YA novel.

Thoughts?

Kookla

Posts : 160
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  paablish on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:51 am

I'm re-reading the trilogy, too. Just started Mockingjay.

I think Katniss was a catalyst. She recognises that she was a catalyst and once she was no longer needed she was able to lead the life she wanted thought would previously be denied.
I don't really think there was a "role" for her in rebuilding the world and she didn't really suit a public life either.

paablish

Posts : 52
Join date : 2011-10-22
Age : 33

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Matinee on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:55 am

Totally agree with you both. Katniss was never a forward-thinking, world-changing, planned-out rebel. Yes, she planned but she was often spontaneous, surprising herself, and she was resistant to be a part of things. Ultimately, I always thought Katniss just wanted herself and those she loved to have freedom, enough food, and a quiet life.

I too thought the ending was very in character for her (and also very consistent with a very traumatized woman). Even the kids thing that people were so mad about - Katniss spelled out exactly why she didn't want children: because she didn't want them to starve or be killed. That doesn't mean that she didn't want them at all. I never interpreted her being anti-kid-having, just wary and frightened, and damaged by her experiences.

Matinee

Posts : 523
Join date : 2011-10-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Jasmine on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:00 am

I thought Mockingjay was a pretty bad book, and there was little that I liked about it, including the ending. That said, I had no anger for Katniss or her behavior throughout that book -- I think the reason that Mockingjay was bad was because Katniss was so passive, but that was because of the structure of the narrative, not because there was anything wrong with the character acting like that.

Jasmine

Posts : 290
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  biakbiak on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:06 am

Yeah my loathing of MockingJay has very little to do with the ending or Katniss not being more of a leader in the creation of a new world, it's that the narrative put her on the sidelines long before that and also what was in the forefront was boring as shit.
avatar
biakbiak

Posts : 1454
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Kookla on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:24 am

Also, no matter how you feel about Peeta, the first two books were build around her interactions with him. They totally took that away for most of the last book. There was no one to balance her at all. Gale didn't prove to be the balance she needed (which she recognized at the end). There also wasn't much with her and Haymitch. The result for the reader was a very dull and/or frustrating reading experience.

I know how many times it has been said, but the deaths of Finnick and Prim are just weird. I don't know how many times I had to reread before I realized that they were dead. A lot of the book is like that, which is strange because the first two books are almost startling in their clarity. That last one is insanely muddled.


Kookla

Posts : 160
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Carrie Ann on Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:41 pm

I think she tried something in Mockingjay - mimicking Katniss's increasing withdrawal and distancing due to PTSD in the storytelling itself - but it just flat-out didn't work. I'm really hopeful for the movies to be better than the books in some areas, and I definitely think they could improve upon Mockingjay as a whole. Hopefully the movie won't take the same tone and they'll actually capitalize on the emotional moments.
avatar
Carrie Ann

Posts : 1232
Join date : 2011-10-23
Age : 36
Location : Minneapolis, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  lisa on Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:56 am

My 13-year-old niece is reading the series in anticipation of the movies, so I'm re-reading along with her.

I might be giving Suzanne Collins too much credit here, but it seems pretty evident from The Hunger Games on that Katniss is a very damaged person. She's furious at her mother for checking out after her father died, and she clings to that anger because it helps her cope with her justifiable feelings of parental abandonment. There's lines throughout the books about how she misses her mother and having a relationship with her, but her own anger and her fear about her mother abandoning her get in the way. Not like too many people in Panem are going to be models of emotional equilibrium (near-slavery, repression, compulsory viewing of reality TV, etc.), but even on the scale of what passes for "normal" pre-revolution, Katniss was already limping along.

Carrie Ann's theory that Mockingjay is a firsthand illustration of what someone might go through with PTSD seems super-plausible. I wish, however, that the whole series would have been structured slightly differently, with multiple narrators. This would have been awesome for several reasons, not the least of which being that when your first-person narrator is an angry, depressive loner who can't relate to people, it provides lots of constraints on the scope of a story about a revolution that overthrows a 76-year-old repressive regime.

(Also, I would have loved it if Prim and Gale were narrators, because then the end of Mockingjay would have been so much more awesome.)

lisa

Posts : 52
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  sixchooks on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:28 pm

lisa wrote:I wish, however, that the whole series would have been structured slightly differently, with multiple narrators. This would have been awesome for several reasons, not the least of which being that when your first-person narrator is an angry, depressive loner who can't relate to people, it provides lots of constraints on the scope of a story about a revolution that overthrows a 76-year-old repressive regime.

Yes, this, precisely. The authorial skill shown in creating Katniss's narrative voice notwithstanding, the limitations led to a very unsatisfying experience in the third book. I was fairly interested in the political intrigue and the downfall of the Capitol, but the whole thing was very hard to follow. It was very weird to have any narration be totally absent during the election of the new president, especially. Did you guys consider the big ethical/moral question about Gale engineering the attack on the Capitol children to be resolved, or is the question left open?
avatar
sixchooks

Posts : 72
Join date : 2011-10-22
Age : 42
Location : Austin, TX

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Algae on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:55 pm

First person narrative always takes me a long time to get into. It's limiting and it usually means the main character ends up somewhere super conveniently so that she (it's almost always a she) can overhear something that needs to be explained for the plot. There are some well done books, and it seems to be really popular in YA books, but it's mostly clunky. I did like it in The Hunger Games, but (I haven't read the next 2 yet) I'm not sure if I'll like it as the story grows out of Kat's head.
avatar
Algae

Posts : 368
Join date : 2011-10-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  lisa on Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:02 pm

Did you guys consider the big ethical/moral question about Gale engineering the attack on the Capitol children to be resolved, or is the question left open?

I figure that by the laws of storytelling, it's totally obvious he did it and he's not sorry he did, because Gale considers everyone in the Capitol to be guilty by association. Also, given how he felt about taking down the Nut in District 2, Gale is clearly very comfortable with the ol' "Well, you can't make an overthrow-the-government omelet without breaking a few thousand innocent lives-eggs" philosophy.

But I am guessing he did not know that Coin was going to insert Prim into the medics' corps. And Gale is sorry for the loss of Prim's life, mostly because he knows how that loss affects someone he cares about (Katniss) and how that loss spikes his chances of getting what he wants (Katniss). And this is a total contrast to Peeta, who has shown from book #1 that he thinks of every death-by-statecraft as a crime, because everybody who dies is someone's loved one. And given how the book ends with Katniss meditating on Madge and her quiet brand of bravery, it seems Katniss has moved from the Gale end of the spectrum in book #1 to the Peeta perspective by book #3.

To be honest, I think Gale gets a really, really unfair shake in the books. We don't ever see how a guy who a) steps up and supports his family as a teenager, b) while also nurturing a fellow adolescent hunter, and c) rescuing as many of his fellow citizens as he can during an aerial assault finally lets his anger outweigh his obvious value of other people's lives. And I wish we had. By book #3, he's just this horrible warning of What War Does To People and the love triangle is BS.

lisa

Posts : 52
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Paris, Texas on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:41 pm

I feel about Mockingjay the same way as I feel about The Order of The Phoenix - it is two drafts and an eagle-eyed editor away from being a very good book. And there was a far better book underneath the drossier aspects that dragged.

Collins linked back into the 'reality TV' themes she said inspired her. Dressing as the Mockingjay and the filmed guerilla raids with characters we didn't really know was boring. Finnick and his weepy devotchka were boring. Gale was boring. I totally agree that we needed more information as the the political situation with regards to Coin and Snow. Plutrarch and Haymitch particularly (I missed him, more than Peeta even, and he needed a far, far, more significant role) should have had a part in being an information portal for Katniss and the readers.

I too don't feel Gale is responsible for Prim's demise - but I understand and accept that Katniss might find him - on an emotional level - impossible to face anymore. I like that she and Gale do not become a couple. As much as it is a featured of novels with female protagonists, the OTP/shipping aspect of these works bugs, so the idea that love is an action, and doesn't waft into being from the idea of the boy-next-door/surrogate-male-family-figure is "the one" but from those share their lives and beliefs and cares with each other. Being unable to forgive and take responsibility for each other after her father's death is why Katniss and her mother, inspite of their bond, are never able truly reconcile after Prim's death. And why Katniss remains distant to the idea of intimacy and family and motherhood, so why some readers give her the Aniston treatment for not wanting babies is really odd.

I really hope when adapting the next films that the material in Catching Fire makes up the bulk of the third film as well as the second, rather than Mockingjay getting two slots.

Paris, Texas

Posts : 140
Join date : 2011-10-28

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Gillian on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:54 pm

To be honest, I think Gale gets a really, really unfair shake in the books. We don't ever see how a guy who a) steps up and supports his family as a teenager, b) while also nurturing a fellow adolescent hunter, and c) rescuing as many of his fellow citizens as he can during an aerial assault finally lets his anger outweigh his obvious value of other people's lives. And I wish we had. By book #3, he's just this horrible warning of What War Does To People and the love triangle is BS.
You know, I never really thought about it that way, and I really guess I should have. I definitely agree that Gale got the shaft in book #3, but it was pretty easy for me to roll with it because A. I was Team Peeta, and B. He was just SUCH an angry dude. And his anger made total sense to me. We really didn't get to spend all that much time with him, figuring him out, but I kind of felt like we did because he was so much like Katniss, and SHE was so bitter and angry. I understood where her bitterness/anger came from, so because Gale's circumstances were so similar to hers, I understood where his bitterness/anger came from. Where their philosophies diverged was in seeing the Capitol residents as people. Katniss was able to because she was able to form attachments to Effie and her beauty team and see the human beings behind all the ridiculousness. I don't think she would have been able to feel anything but disgust for Effie and Octavia and co. had she not spent massive amounts of time with them. It's understandable to me that Gale would be fiercely protective of anybody he sees as a victim of the Capitol, and be all "Fuck all y'all!" to the rest. And I do think it's believable that he would get wrapped up enough in the rebellion that he would be willing to sacrifice the lives of others to win, because he absolutely does not have a problem sacrificing his own life. Where I think he gets the shaft is in the fall-out of Prim's death. I don't know how it could have been handled differently, but it felt like Collins rushed over all of the implications. Katniss was mad, Gale was sorry, and they never saw each other again. I felt like there should have been more there, even though Katniss was hardly in a place to give anymore to their confrontation than she did.

Gillian

Posts : 472
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Poubelle on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:04 am

Really cool map of Panem, and how they came up with it. It actually makes some logical sense, which is more than I can say for other "this is what a Panem map might look like" ideas I've seen.
avatar
Poubelle

Posts : 691
Join date : 2011-10-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  laddical on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:29 am

Even in a post-atomic dictatorship like Panem, I expect that boundaries are defined as much by geographical features as cartographer fiat - neither of which is likely to create a "whirling vortex" style map distribution. A map like the one by Maria Rizzoni might have certain logical problems of its own - why would there be no rhyme or reason to the numerical designations of the Districts being a big one - but at least it looks like a map I can believe was designed by people and not some mathematical algorithm.
avatar
laddical

Posts : 1607
Join date : 2011-10-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Vmars123 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:33 pm

Has anyone read Battle Royale? That's the book she ripped off to write The Hunger Games. It's so much better.

Vmars123

Posts : 4
Join date : 2012-02-13

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Matinee on Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:37 am

Vmars123 wrote:Has anyone read Battle Royale? That's the book she ripped off to write The Hunger Games. It's so much better.

I have (book and manga) and while I found the the concept similar, I thought the world building, scope, and details of the story were quite different. I don't think it's any more a rip-off than, say, "The Day After" is a rip-off of "When the Wind Blows" or "On the Beach".

Matinee

Posts : 523
Join date : 2011-10-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Maestro on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:04 am

Yeah, I don't think it's a rip off at all. They actually have little in common especially if you compare the world those two stories take place in. Even the thematic elements are different.

Maestro

Posts : 17
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  ariadne on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:37 am

Me three. If anything I'd say it was closer in tone to Stephen King's Running Man than Battle Royale. I guess it's the age of the 'contestants' that provokes the most parallels between HG and BR.

ariadne

Posts : 53
Join date : 2011-10-23

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Agent Sculder on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:41 pm

After hearing about these books for ages, I bought all three and blitzed through them in less than a week. I really enjoyed The Hunger Games, and I liked many of the characters that were introduced in Catching Fire, but I thought Mockingjay was just OK. Mostly, I found it incredibly depressing since Prim dies, Gale becomes consumed by the desire to prevail in the revolution, no matter what the cost, and so many other innocent men, women, and children were killed. And as many people mentioned here, I think the separation of Katniss and Peeta hurt the story.

I didn't mind the beginning part of the book where we learn about District 13, and I understand why Katniss didn't have that much to do for HUGE parts of the book. Since she's the rebels "inspiration" it makes sense her movements become very restricted. But I felt like there wasn't a lot of time spent on how that was affecting Katniss emotionally. I would have rather read about her frustrations at being used only for propaganda purposes than the actual filming of the propaganda pieces.

Agent Sculder

Posts : 263
Join date : 2012-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Kookla on Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:55 am

I was skimming over my books after I watched the movie, and I revisited Mockingjay (again... weird how that happens when it's the one I like the least). I found that I could more specifically articulate the way it suffers from a plot standpoint alone.

I found the first half of the book only mildly interesting, and the interest comes from actually waiting for something to happen instead of anything actually occuring. Then, when Peeta returns as Different!Peeta! the story takes a nosedive. Again, I don't think this is symptomatic of the plot point itself. It was actually fairly good that it made Katniss realize how much she had taken him for granted, and how it was now "her turn" to bring him back to her. But at that stage as a reader I was ready for her to interact with him again (him or Haymitch), and also anything else going on at that same time wasn't interesting (essentially, I think he should have returned earlier). Then the story takes a further hit when they actually go on their mission to execute Snow, though this should have been exciting. I don't know what it is about the way this section is written, but I couldn't tell what the frick was going on. Maybe someone can articulate why better than I can.

Despite the fact that it's horribly depressing, I don't mind Prim's death for its poetic irony. I don't mind Katniss shooting Coin. I actually don't even mind her essentially doing nothing but rocking back and forth in her room until they retrieve her. I adore her being ushered back to District 11, and I love the depiction of being utterly broken, but slowly rebuilding life. The last three pages tie the romance portion neatly back to the more important matter of Katniss's self-realization: "What I need to survive is not... fire... but the dandelion in the spring." Subtle lines like: "We grow back together" and "his arms are there to comfort me" are more poignant I think than long explanations and proclamations, or whatnot at this stage of the novel. The epilogue and the general tone of the ending work very well. The problem for me isn't, as some people suggest that Collins doesn't spend enough time on these parts. It's that she spends too much of the first 7/8ths of the book on things that don't work. The brevity of the last parts would have been made better had she restrained herself earlier.

As I result, my own post is so much longer than I intended it to be. :)

And now, on a purely immature point, this line? "So after, when he whispers, "You love me. Real or not real?" The "after" is totally after they had sex. Just saying.


Last edited by Kookla on Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:14 am; edited 1 time in total

Kookla

Posts : 160
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Auroura76 on Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:10 am

And now, on a purely immature point, this line? "So after, when he whispers, "You love me. Real or not real?" The "after" is totally after they had sex. Just saying.

That's how I read it!

I'm actually the one person on the planet that did like Mockingjay (though not as much as the other two), but I definitely understand where the criticism comes from. And I really agree with you about the brevity of the later statements being so much more powerful than long passages would be. It left me wanting just the right amount more.

Auroura76

Posts : 118
Join date : 2011-10-24

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  inversed on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:04 am

My niece told me that these books have been banned from her middle school. Because so many kids were reading them on the sly and not paying attention in class!

inversed

Posts : 1300
Join date : 2011-10-27
Age : 35
Location : Newcastle, UK

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  ActonBell on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:10 pm

Aw, that's too bad. Sneaking books into my classes to read when I would get bored helped me become awesome at multitasking.
avatar
ActonBell

Posts : 682
Join date : 2011-11-03

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  particle_person on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:11 pm

inversed wrote:My niece told me that these books have been banned from her middle school. Because so many kids were reading them on the sly and not paying attention in class!
If you are banning books in a school, you are probably Doing It Wrong.

_________________
"Good news, Katniss, I think we've almost got him convinced you're not a mutt!" — Plutarch, attempting to cheer Katniss up about Peeta's condition.
avatar
particle_person
Tech Support

Posts : 1967
Join date : 2011-10-21

Back to top Go down

Re: The Hunger Games Trilogy (Spoilers)

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum