Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Carrie Ann wrote:Oh, if they stick close to the book, I'll be pretty satisfied. Is it happening next episode?

Looks like.

Really a dragon eating him while simultaneously broiling him was my hope before I caught up with the books. I still think somewhere down the road someone gets impaled on the Iron Throne.

People are upset they seem to have swapped the purple amythest hair net for an aquamarine necklace as the way to poison Joff, but as long he's poisoned and chokes to death in public at his own wedding I'm good.

Ooh, it's this Sunday? I can't wait. I'm off Monday, so I will have the joy of watching it with my unspoiled friends, after which I will pop all the popcorn and enjoy watching the internet celebrate.

Bronn has already sold out Tyrion to his father, I think. He seemed not too interested in talking about what happened to Shae at the wedding, and given her very different characterization in the book, I think the coming trial will play out rather differently. Book Tyrion seemed not terribly surprised when Bronn ditched him after his loss of power and fortune, but Show Tyrion is going to be devastated.

I appreciated how carefully the Purple Wedding feast played out; non-book readers would be able to figure out what happened just by watching carefully, though of course Tyrion's involvement would be questionable. Margaery's part in particular seemed so well-done; you can see the moment she really decides she's going to go through with it. Sansa and Tyrion's little moments of commiseration were very touching, too.

Margaery's part in particular seemed so well-done; you can see the moment she really decides she's going to go through with it.

IDK, the preview seems to insinuate the QoT acted alone w/o Margery's involvement. In the books I thought she knew it was going to happen, but was left out of the exact plot for plausible deniability. Maybe she's just mad at the timing, ergo the lack of consummation, but QoT wouldn't have risked Marge even one night in Joff's psychotic bed.

Whatever concerns I had about them softening Cersei, they made up for it at wedding. Feeding the poor's food to the dogs, mixing it up with Ellaria/Oberyn, and with Brienne, and Pycelle. It made it all the sweeter that her horrible son choked to death in front of her.

I like the changes to the Ramsay/Roose  part of the story, but now I have to fret for poor Rickon. Maybe that means more Osha though, and I can see her, along with Shaggydogg, taking out The Bastard of Bolton w/ease.

I think there are some frames in which Margaery moves her hands pretty suspiciously, though of course she got the Strangler from Olenna. Book Margaery was younger and we aren't sure of how much of her innocence is feigned, but the show version is much cannier and definitely involved.

Fiammetta wrote:Bronn has already sold out Tyrion to his father, I think. He seemed not too interested in talking about what happened to Shae at the wedding, and given her very different characterization in the book, I think the coming trial will play out rather differently. Book Tyrion seemed not terribly surprised when Bronn ditched him after his loss of power and fortune, but Show Tyrion is going to be devastated.

I appreciated how carefully the Purple Wedding feast played out; non-book readers would be able to figure out what happened just by watching carefully, though of course Tyrion's involvement would be questionable. Margaery's part in particular seemed so well-done; you can see the moment she really decides she's going to go through with it. Sansa and Tyrion's little moments of commiseration were very touching, too.

I'm actually not that sure non-readers could figure it out. I looked at a couple threads of non-spoiled, and a surprisingly large number of people were absolutely convinced that is was Cersei's doing. Actually, I thought the scene was shot in a way that it could have been any number of people. I assume they are going to follow the book, but I'm not convinced anything in the actual scene is evidence of it.

My husband was talking about it to a few people at work, none of whom have read the books, and they all have a different idea about who did it. A few of them think it was Tywin, which would never have occurred to me. Others thought Tyrion, or Sansa, but not both. No one seems to have thought of the Tyrells, or even Oberyn, which is weird to me.

Weird because it is so manifestly a political act. Any of the immediate family would have done the deed when convenient, when providing the best alibi, when the most humiliating to Joffrey or satisfying to the assassin. The way it was done was public theater, not personal revenge. Not that the any of the principals will consider that, poor Tyrion.

This way there is Queen Margery however thorny (ahem) the constitutional crisis, a better chance with King Tommen, no chance of Joffrey reproducing, and the Tyrells are in a good position.

What kind of monster, indeed: a grandmother.

Yeah, my boss is convinced Jaime was the one who did it. I.... am not sure she knows that Jaime is Joffrey's real father.

My husband is convinced Margaery did it, which isn't a bad assumption. Because I was seriously watching for it I caught the Queen of Thornes touching Sansa's necklace, but I could easily see how someone would miss it. It was subtle, which I appreciate greatly.

I like the tv show better in the sense that I get Olena's motivations more wanting to protect Margery, gather more power and get Tywin back for boxing her out on marrying off Sansa.

It seems like a theme that Tyrion didn't register with Tywin about the Red Wedding, asking him if it was better to kill two dozen at a wedding or thousands on the battlefield as it was opening a flood gate. Olenna's little wink there was another hint.

OK, bringing some Jaime/Cersei discussion over here, because I'm pretty angry about it. I honestly can't imagine GRRM would be that thrilled about it either, but maybe he sees it as the director apparently did, that it "becomes consensual." Did any of you see it that way? Does anyone understand the point of this? Why have they built Jaime up so much only to make him do this? It's disgusting and not in his character.

As Sonia Soraiya pointed out at The AV Club, this is the second time that a consensual sex scene from the books was turned into rape. I'd almost managed to forget about the Dany/Drogo scene. And yeah, neither of those scenes are exemplary of healthy sex, but in the world of the books, where child brides are common and sex with relations is still the norm in some places, they're at least on the positive side of the scale because both parties give their consent. Why do the writers/directors want these characters to be raped? What does that do for the characters involved or the storylines? In Dany's case, it did nothing but make her character seem more easily manipulated, Drogo seem like a savage (which, given the sketchy racist undertones of the works was just ugh on top of ugh), and their relationship more unhealthy.

In Cersei's case, I guess it'll be the thing that drives her and Jaime apart for good, because we can't just allow that to continue happening naturally. Yuck. And for Jaime, I mean, they probably won't deal with it because apparently they don't think it's rape.

I was also pretty outraged. The only thing I can think is that they're trying to remind us that none of these characters are good guys, which I also think was the point of the Hound beating up the farmer after a couple episodes of semi-likeable behavior. Still, it doesn't fit Jaime's characterization at all -- he is notably anti-rape in the book and goes out of his way to stop Brienne's rape -- and I see it as the continuing softening of Cersei's character. I don't know why they're trying to make her a tragic figure instead of the heinous human she actually is. I'm very curious to see how they'll handle her upcoming decline. If they try to blame her downfall on anything but her own stupidity, I'm going to be annoyed.

I don't know, I think they just really wanted to emphasize the point that the Jaime/Cersei relationship is inherently wrong and destructive. And in all fairness, I don't think it was that clear to the viewers just yet.

I mean, it's not like Jaime's love for Cersei inspired him to attempt to kill a child, or anything.

I see it as the continuing softening of Cersei's character. I don't know why they're trying to make her a tragic figure instead of the heinous human she actually is.

Yup. It started with her losing a baby in S1, a baby she actually aborted in the book because she hadn't been able to prevent conception like she did for the rest of her marriage to Robert. It continued when she admits Joffrey is a monster and expresses this to TYRION  and Sansa for fucks sake. They have entirely omitted her fucking those two ka-nig-its the Kettleblacks, and now Jamie has raped her while she was grieving their son because she's a "hateful" woman. I do appreciate them trying to make Cersei less stupid, and less mustache twirling evil, but the lengths they've gone to make her soft and sympathetic really bother me, more than the idea Jamie has had his redemption arc snuffed out entirely.

I wonder if that might be because Jamie is the ACTUAL valonqar, his love definitely turns to a disturbing hate so I do think he will end up killing her, maybe that's why TPTB think it's okay to remind everyone that he's a killer capable of anything, even harming Cersei. Why they'd want to blow that wad NOW, rather than when it actually happens I do not know.

My biggest issue with the scene last night is no one representing the show seems to think they portrayed a rape scene, they think they represented the books more complex portrayal of rough, icky, but ultimately consensual sex.

blixie wrote:My biggest issue with the scene last night is no one representing the show seems to think they portrayed a rape scene, they think they represented the books more complex portrayal of rough, icky, but ultimately consensual sex.

Agreed. If we'd seen a similar scene in a previous episode that ended in an obviously consensual fashion, then maybe I could've handwaved that scene as just part of Cersei and Jaime's kink. But since we didn't, that was just straight-up rape, and I have no idea how the showrunners don't see that.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them include some kind of post-coital moment in the next episode making clear that Cersei was into it. They'll have to, to save any of the progress they've made with Jaime.

I'm frustrated for Cersei's character development too. I didn't mind them softening her a bit, just because there was some evidence in the books that she had these feelings, but never expressed them. And while that's fine for a book, it's harder to get that across on a show unless she just has some handmaiden to confess her true feelings to (like Taena in the later books, for example), and that just takes up time. I don't know that it hurts to have her acknowledge the obvious truth to Tyrion and Sansa. And I actually think it makes her more 3-D than she was in the books, where I felt like she started out with layers and was one of the most intriguing characters, but she became so tiresome and one-note from Joff's engagement to Margaery onward.

But I don't see what they gain by making her a victim of rape by the one man she ever loved. She'd already rejected him--no need to drive them apart by artificial means. And people who hate her are already saying she deserved it (don't read the comments anywhere today, folks), so if they were trying to get more sympathy for her, that failed. If they're trying to get people to be harsher on Jaime, then I just don't get that, because no one was harsher on him than I was, but even I would never have believed he would do this.

queenofdenile wrote:I don't know, I think they just really wanted to emphasize the point that the Jaime/Cersei relationship is inherently wrong and destructive. And in all fairness, I don't think it was that clear to the viewers just yet.

I mean, it's not like Jaime's love for Cersei inspired him to attempt to kill a child, or anything.

I think the fact that they were twins who were screwing emphasized enough the point that their relationship was wrong and destructive.

Yeah, that's what I don't get. The wrongness and unhealthiness of the relationship is self-evident, and it's been portrayed that way at every step. Having consensual sex next to their son's corpse would have been gross enough, surely.

I wonder if that might be because Jamie is the ACTUAL valonqar, his love definitely turns to a disturbing hate

I do like that theory but I don't get the sense in the books that Jaime winds up hating Cersei, more like he grows and sees her for who she really is and then just decides she ain't worth it.

I echo everyone else's complaints and this also has me wondering, yet again, how the Tyrion/Shae/Tysha thing is going to go down. In the books, him killing Shae was gross and was the start of what made me lose love for the character, but on the show it would be absolutely unforgivable. It made me wonder if Tywin or Cersei was just going to kill Shae instead and the show would just eliminate the Tysha reveal.

But now that the showrunners think it's totes OK to have Jaime rape Cersei and even say it wasn't really rape, for all I know Tyrion's murder of Shae will be twice as brutal onscreen and we'll still be expected to sympathize with him afterward.

I don't get the sense in the books that Jaime winds up hating Cersei, more like he grows and sees her for who she really is and then just decides she ain't worth it.

Huh I thought I remembered him fantasizing a bit about killing her, whilst also saying he still desired her so that's what I thought was creepy, BUT my memory sucks which is why I'm doing my first re-read of the series, or at least from ASoS forward.

I'm also wondering about the Shae thing, a part of me is hoping they collapse Tysha into Shae, and have Shae live and be the one Tyrion is chasing to Essos. Although, awful as his murder of her was in the books, I think it was such a crime of passion, and she's so annoying, and then just the betrays the shit out of him in the worst way possible, so that in and of itself wouldn't have put me off Tyrion, any more than his participating in the gang rape of Tysha did.

It does make a really stark comparison to Jamie though, as Jamie starts to lose things (Cersei, his hand, his looks, his health, his child) he becomes a better man, and as Tryion loses things (his role as Hand, his trial, Shae, his brother via the Tysha admission) he becomes a bigger asshole.

It does make a really stark comparison to Jamie though, as Jamie starts to lose things (Cersei, his hand, his looks, his health, his child) he becomes a better man, and as Tryion loses things (his role as Hand, his trial, Shae, his brother via the Tysha admission) he becomes a bigger asshole.

To be fair to Tyrion though, he already had a hard enough time even when he HAD all those things, and he had a pretty hard life before, and now that he's had a taste of power and happiness I can understand how it's easier for him to revert to more of an asshole once he starts to losing the power he's gained. Meanwhile for Jamie, losing all these things is the first time he's ever really been humbled in his life.

[quote="blixie"]

I wonder if that might be because Jamie is the ACTUAL valonqar, his love definitely turns to a disturbing hate so I do think he will end up killing her, maybe that's why TPTB think it's okay to remind everyone that he's a killer capable of anything, even harming Cersei. Why they'd want to blow that wad NOW, rather than when it actually happens I do not know.

That's probably the most obvious one besides R+L=J. The twist might be it was all bullshit or a self-fulfilling prophesy with her hatred of Tyrion.

What I like in their family dynamic is the subtext that all three kids resent Tywin's hypocrisy about furthering the family line sense he's never remarried after Joanna died. He could have sired more heirs taking the pressure of Jaime and used himself to broker an alliance that would take the pressure off Sersi and maybe make him less hateful to Tyrion.

My biggest issue with the scene last night is no one representing the show seems to think they portrayed a rape scene, they think they represented the books more complex portrayal of rough, icky, but ultimately consensual sex.

Yeah it was vintage Ian Flemming James Bond "Girls like a little rape". Ruined my enjoyment of Tywin twisting the knife on her with Tommen.

So will Bolton sending Locke out on a hunt for Bran and Rickon put Osha and Rickon back in the show this year and be the first peek in WoW? I'd hate to lose Natalia Tenna for a season or more and think she is one of the better female characters in the show. I like her relationship as Bran's sort of big sister and will be bummed if she doesn't reunite with him eventually.

Bringing this over because I do find it next to impossible in this particular situation to separate my book thoughts from my show thoughts.

And Show Jaime has generally been painted in a better light than Book Jaime, so that helps too.

Up to now I thought ALL the Lannister's had been painted in a better light, but of the four of them Jamie has actually suffered the most, despite NCW's charmingly bitchy motherfucker routine. The writers have now had him become a kinslayer and rapist, neither of which occurs in the book, both of which push him from the sort of Chaotic Neutral he was at the end of ASoS into, all the way back to the Neutral Evil he was when first we met him. Also I just learned that DB Weiss claimed they had him kill Cleos because they didn't want people to forget that he is "a monster who LOVES killing."

That's a huge problem for me. The monsters of Westeros are The Mountain, Vargo Hoat, and The Bloody Mummers, Roose and Ramsay, and Joffrey. And above all Tywin Lannister, who in one way or another is responsible for various horrible acts of everyone on that list. I just don't see where Jamie is anywhere near in the same ballpark as those guys, and the fact that they had to invent something TWICE to make that point really says it all about how valid the interpretation is.