Game of Thrones (Book Spoilers, Srsly, Monkey)

Leaving aside the specific rape scene for a moment, what I'm really wondering now is whether Tyrion's plot will play out as in the book. I seem to have a high tolerance for terrible behavior in my favorite characters (to clarify, ONLY IN FICTIONAL ENTERTAINMENT), so it is only now occurring to me that droves of outraged viewers might actually stop watching at the end of the season, unless they change things up. Which makes me further wonder if the show-runners had some strange philosophy that if they drag ALL the likeable characters through the moral mud as much as possible, then the disintegration of Tyrion and Arya and (to some extent) the moral compromises Dany makes once she has to rule as opposed to doing the Henry V rallying routine) and so on, won't outrage people as much? Or maybe they are setting something up for Jamie that didn't occur/hasn't occurred in the books? :it's all very confusing:

Another possibility is that, despite their attempts to make Cersei more human, they think that viewers won't sympathize enough with her coming arc; and I can't blame them for worrying about it...despite all the bad crap that she's had to deal with, and despite her POV in the books, most readers/viewers hate her. In typical contrary fashion, I started enjoying her by the end of the fourth book and would love to see her put an epic smackdown on those priests, and I was hoping to be able to start really rooting for her in the show, as well. I was actually pretty pissed (on her behalf, not because I thought it wasn't a valid character-development thing for Jamie to do) when Jamie blew her off at the end of that book. But if they are already completely estranged, that won't have much dramatic impact on the show...

I just realized I am a COMPLETE 'ho in regard to constantly sympathizing with every damn character in this book, and happily switching allegiance with every change in POV! (Except Melisandre...I'm resisting the author's attempts with her).

But if that's the thinking, then it's yet another example of stereotypically male-bullshit decision making by show runners. Why sexually victimize her? Why not just start really showing her desperation at her own powerlessness that manifests in countless other ways? She's already about to married off to yet another guy she hates...lost 2 of her kids...she feels abandoned and devalued. It seems like men who write shows always go for the rape thing because it's an easy way to drum up sympathy. But I think it often backfires...after the out of nowhere rape on Downton Abbey, my husband actually refused to watch that show anymore, and he used to love it. In that regard, using it as a plot point seems cheap, like the writers don't want to actually DO THE WORK in showing that as Jamie slowly matures, he can't connect in that narcissistic way to Cersei any more.

Man, do you think they are going to have Tyrion actually NOT kill Shae?

blixie wrote:Bringing this over because I do find it next to impossible in this particular situation to separate my book thoughts from my show thoughts.

And Show Jaime has generally been painted in a better light than Book Jaime, so that helps too.

Up to now I thought ALL the Lannister's had been painted in a better light, but of the four of them Jamie has actually suffered the most, despite NCW's charmingly bitchy motherfucker routine. The writers have now had him become a kinslayer and rapist, neither of which occurs in the book, both of which push him from the sort of Chaotic Neutral he was at the end of ASoS into, all the way back to the Neutral Evil he was when first we met him. Also I just learned that DB Weiss claimed they had him kill Cleos because they didn't want people to forget that he is "a monster who LOVES killing."

That's a huge problem for me. The monsters of Westeros are The Mountain, Vargo Hoat, and The Bloody Mummers, Roose and Ramsay, and Joffrey. And above all Tywin Lannister, who in one way or another is responsible for various horrible acts of everyone on that list. I just don't see where Jamie is anywhere near in the same ballpark as those guys, and the fact that they had to invent something TWICE to make that point really says it all about how valid the interpretation is.

Actually, you're right now that I think about it. I think I found Show Jaime more charming than I did Book Jaime because of NCW, and that's probably the only reason. I'd forgotten about the kinslaying too.

And wow, yeah, I never really thought of Jaime as a monster who loves killing. That's a really strange interpretation of his character. I think he loves being a knight. I think he loves being in a battle, swordfighting, etc. But if he loved killing so much, why does he go out of his way to avoid bloodshed in the latter books (at Riverrun, for example)? Why do we never see him kill someone without reason (even if those reasons are very self-serving)?

even when he HAD all those things, and he had a pretty hard life before,

Eh, see and I just really don't think his life was all that hard. Yes he's a dwarf, but he's also a crazy rich white dude and part of a powerful family that has run roughshod over the realm for most of his life. His fee fee's are hurt on the regular but when we meet him in GoT he seems to mostly enjoy the hell out of his life such as it is. I liked him, but I always saw him as essentially just as big an asshole as the rest of his family.

Man, do you think they are going to have Tyrion actually NOT kill Shae?

This is show spoilery spec but

Spoiler:

It seems odd to have changed Shae so that the only thing she has in common with the book character is a name and a profession, and I can't even remember if they've mentioned Tysha, so I'm personally hoping that she really did leave on that boat, and Tyrion will pursue her after he kills Tywin. The St. Tyrion is Whitewashed group seem to think that he will stumble on a post-coital Tywin murdering Shae instead, and then accidentally Tywin will fall down a privy onto an arrow as Tyrion cries in a corner. I think it's possilbe Tywin does kill her so Tyrion is absolved of a really creepy/damning muder and is able to heroically take down the Evil Tywin as revenge. Or yeah they could just do it exactly like the books.

Tyrion told Shae and Bronn (or was it Pod?) the story of Tysha. I expect we'll hear the real story from Jaime, but I think maybe we won't have to find out where whores go. I don't think he'll ever find her in the books, so I don't think they need to even pay lip service to that on the show.

Tyrion killing Shae in the books really bothers me just because, while it's true that she's super annoying and also betrays him in a really humiliating and public way, part of his motivation seems to be that he was heartbroken that she didn't love him, and…dude, you knew that. You always knew that. It's not her fault that you lied to yourself about who she was. Of course she was going to sell herself to the highest bidder.

Carrie Ann wrote:

blixie wrote:Bringing this over because I do find it next to impossible in this particular situation to separate my book thoughts from my show thoughts.

And Show Jaime has generally been painted in a better light than Book Jaime, so that helps too.

Up to now I thought ALL the Lannister's had been painted in a better light, but of the four of them Jamie has actually suffered the most, despite NCW's charmingly bitchy motherfucker routine. The writers have now had him become a kinslayer and rapist, neither of which occurs in the book, both of which push him from the sort of Chaotic Neutral he was at the end of ASoS into, all the way back to the Neutral Evil he was when first we met him. Also I just learned that DB Weiss claimed they had him kill Cleos because they didn't want people to forget that he is "a monster who LOVES killing."

That's a huge problem for me. The monsters of Westeros are The Mountain, Vargo Hoat, and The Bloody Mummers, Roose and Ramsay, and Joffrey. And above all Tywin Lannister, who in one way or another is responsible for various horrible acts of everyone on that list. I just don't see where Jamie is anywhere near in the same ballpark as those guys, and the fact that they had to invent something TWICE to make that point really says it all about how valid the interpretation is.

Actually, you're right now that I think about it. I think I found Show Jaime more charming than I did Book Jaime because of NCW, and that's probably the only reason. I'd forgotten about the kinslaying too.

How could you forget about the kinslaying? Everyone goes on and on about the incest and Jaime laying his kin. Oh...

With regards to Shea there was a scene of him giving her a gold necklace so I think that will be there with all its horror. What I worry about is they'll make Bronn's betrayal worse than the pragmatic decision it was in the books.

Looks like they're changing up the mutiny and not having the mutineers of the Watch being killed by Coldhands. I like Snow's warning they have to shut those guys up to keep the illusion alive that Castle Black has 1,000 men. Especially after he was forced to agree with Allester on the raiders.

blixie wrote:The St. Tyrion is Whitewashed group seem to think that he will stumble on a post-coital Tywin murdering Shae instead, and then accidentally Tywin will fall down a privy onto an arrow as Tyrion cries in a corner. I think it's possilbe Tywin does kill her so Tyrion is absolved of a really creepy/damning muder and is able to heroically take down the Evil Tywin as revenge. Or yeah they could just do it exactly like the books.

I can't imagine Tywin murdering Shae. He is far too cool and controlled; is there any evidence of him harming anyone with his own hands? I could see him ordering a guard to kill her, but I can't picture Tywin wrapping his hands around her throat.

blixie wrote: The St. Tyrion is Whitewashed group seem to think that he will stumble on a post-coital Tywin murdering Shae instead, and then accidentally Tywin will fall down a privy onto an arrow as Tyrion cries in a corner. I think it's possilbe Tywin does kill her so Tyrion is absolved of a really creepy/damning muder and is able to heroically take down the Evil Tywin as revenge. Or yeah they could just do it exactly like the books.

So true! This just makes me think back to the hysterical denial that Spike could be telling Buffy the truth about all those girls he raped and ate. IT'S A SOCIOPATHIC PREDATOR, PEOPLE...I mean, COME ON :she says, about one of her favorite characters ever: Or what about my mom, who gets instantly furious at any minor criticism of the Lord of the Rings films. She realizes it's irrational, because she herself is allowed to criticize them, but she says that she loves them SO MUCH that any time someone ELSE expresses a different opinion, it feels like a personal attack on her taste, judgement, character, or whatever.

We're getting to the point in GoT, though, where people who like having clear-cut heroes to root for are going to have to bail on the whole thing, I think. Not being someone who particularly responds to 'good guys' in storytelling, I must admit that this potential hurdle of filming SoIaF never occurred to me before now.

I think Jon Snow is close to a straight-up good guy. His mistakes in the book aren't due to any moral failings, really.

And Davos, C'MON he's the best. Hee. Seriously though most of the "good" people in the story are A)Children/teenagers (Jon, Sansa, Shireen, Gendry, Bran, Rickon, Myrcella, Tommen, Meera, Jojen) (B) Mentally challenged in some way (Pod, Hodor) even Davos is illiterate, now that he can read it may be all downhill. Of course he was a smuggler at one point too, but in the confines of the story he's been unfailingly good and more importantly smart.

Oh oh and Maester Aegon and Sam. There are fairly decent amount of unequivically good people, I'm also willing to give fat Lord Manderlay and Prince Doran, mostly good status.

It's just that the majority of POV characters are some varying degree of bad.

Wait...Pod is supposed to be mentally challenged??

Ha no, just dumb, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, lots of jokes about Tyrion asking him to get breakfast and getting lost on his way to the kitchen which is like across the street.

And Davos, C'MON he's the best. Hee.

No, you're right about Davos. Davos is Ned Stark if he only had a brain.

What Ned or Davos is the dumb one?

Well, Ned managed to get his head chopped off, while Davos is going strong...

Ned had heart, not brains (look where that gets you), Robb had coura--- wait...

I don't think Ned's downfall was a lack of intelligence. More that he couldn't adjust to the speed of the conniving and his honor got in the way.

Littlefinger flat-out told Ned not to trust him and Ned put his trust in him anyway. That says DUMB to me. Poor, sweet, noble dumb Ned. At least when Davos shipped off Edric Storm to safety, he had a good backup plan to keep him in Stannis's good graces.

Littlefinger flat-out told Ned not to trust him and Ned put his trust in him anyway.

Right, and he then proceeded to Lumbergh his way through that confrontation with Cersei, wherein he says she should get out of dodge with her incestuous bastards cause he's totes gonna blow up that fucking her brother thing to the King in like... a couple a days. If she could just got on that particular TPS report, that'd be GREAT.

Ned - and Rob - died because they were too idealistic about the world they lived in. Not stupid exactly - I'd say more naive. It's notable to me that it is losing this same quality that is helping Sansa and Arya better survive their situations.

Ned and Robb were thrust into situations outside their skillset. I think that was their downfall. Hell King Rob was the epitome of that spirit. He knew how to kick ass on the field, but was clueless as to how to run the damn thing.

Did not need any of those scenes at crastor's house. Really did not.

Did not need any of those scenes at crastor's house. Really did not.

For real, I can't even honestly evaluate all of the changes, because I loathed that sequence and it went on FOREVER. And I hated the hell out of the fact that Meera was captured and threatened with rape when she was one of the precious few female characters in the story who wasn't yet victimized in the story.

It's too bad because I can totally understand why they're changing things up regarding Tree Bran, but also I'm not sure how much they are actually changing things. Like are they really gonna reunite Jon/Bran? I'm guessing no and instead Jon will be delayed, they'll briefly fall into the hands of Locke (aka Hoat), before the White Walkers swoop in and lay all those mutineers to waste. Oooh and maybe Coldhands will save Bran et al. C'mon give me COLDHANDS/Benjen Stark! I heard there would be no CH, but dammit I hope they are lying. I love that literally dead pan dude even if he isn't Benjen.

Also dear Jojen's Green Dreams, coulda helped everyone out by foreseeing this crap at Craster's no?

Did not need any of those scenes at crastor's house. Really did not.

They were so violent and traumatic that I ended up feeling sick by the end of the episode. I don't know why they affected me worse than any of the other violent scenes on this show, but they did.

But Ser Pounce!

I hope that Gin Alley guy turns out to be a complete shit talker and can't fight a lick.

I went nuts when I saw Locke in the background at Castle Black. They played his introduction to Snow well.

Slynt needs beheading.