Downton Abbey (British version)

New vs old is probably right. Convulsion is certainly dramatic, but dying is a huge pool of your own blood is plenty dramatic. I suspect they chose eclampsia because treatment doesn't involve any surgery (once the birth was complete) or touching the vagina at all, which would have meant that most or all of the family wasn't in the room at the end.

I found it to be a rather interesting commentary about women's health issues. Most women at the time still relied on mid-wives for the delivery of babies and I am not saying that male doctors don't have the insight into women's health (because Dr. Clarkson obviously saw shit wasn't right) but it seemed like the concerns of the women (like Cora who HAD had her own babies and I wouldn't be surprised if her character had experienced more than one miscarriage or something in an attempt to produce a male heir, so she knew all too well the realities of things going hinky.) were being ignored in the name of ego, fear of vaginas (ROBERT) and ignorance. (and there is a significant history of women going to doctors only to be told, "you are imagining stuff.")

Yes, Fellowes is all over the place IMO. OTOH Downton is this silly soap indulging in nostalgia for a rigid class system. But then things like the optics of the two entitled aristocratic men dismissing women's opinions about childbirth and the opinion of a "less decorated" doctor only for this to end in the death of Sybil. He then usually has problems to make anything coherent out of that, but there are these bursts of, I don't know, subversiveness (?) with Lord Fellowes.

Or making the gay working class man the cartoon villain. IMO pretty iffy. But then he actually started nuancing that. Was pretty impressed about the IMO non-judgemental way him deliberately getting his hand shot to get out of the war was handled. He wasn't presented as a coward, it was made clear that people didn't know what they were signing up for since the propaganda touted that the war would last a month or so. And then Thomas ended up two years (?) in the trenches seeing and experiencing no one knows what horrors. He was presented as a man deeply traumatized by what he had lived through in that hellhole and willing to sacrifice his hand to get out. I was surprised that Fellowes was capable of that much nuance. Or when it's constantly hinted that Thomas' very existence is illegal and falling in love could end in jail for him.

And then Fellowes goes back to Ouija boards, Bates' martyr complex and other cheap melodrama. It's strange.

Having read Fellowes' two novels (both of which are interesting and and kind of entertaining for the insight into the upper classes.) there is that same swing between OMGcrazy and recognizing the nuances that come with humanity/society, all the while being the apologist/defender of the class system. I wouldn't be surprised if he fanboyed over the character of Christopher in "Parade's End".

I thought that the main reason the show had odd pacing with what seemed like abandoned plotlines that could have been mined for more while some stuff (like Bates's story or Daisy & William's relationship) was overused had more to do with the fact that he never had written for TV before so didn't have a firm grasp of a longer form narrative, but maybe not. Maybe he just likes the OMGWTFBBQ revelations mixed in with defending the old guard. lol

Could Robert be Any. More. Of. An. Ass? I was almost disappointed in how easily the marriage rift was mended.

I'm glad Bates is finally out of that interminable storyline.

I'm glad Matthew is finally saying what we're all thinking: Robert can't manage an estate to save his life.

YES. I wanted Robert to be punished more and actually learn something about himself. I'm not saying that what granny did was wrong. Even with an emergency c-section Sybil still had a very good chance of dying, but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the women's desires were completely ignored.

The Irish are drunks. Gays are predatory. And Robert sucks at money. Sometimes I think Fellowes must write his scripts in a bubble bath.
Okay, and this has been sitting with me awhile but Carson acts all pearl-clutchy when Thomas' true nature is revealed to him and there was that episode where it turned out Carson used to work in Vaudeville or whatever and I am thinking, "OMG even gay people existed in theater/music halls. COME ON, don't act so flipping surprised." My Mother worked in theater way back in the dark ages when most people weren't out out, but even then it was known that some were gay. A couple of my Godfathers who were working in theater waaaaaaaaaay back in the forties and fifties, and who were gay and in the closet, (because it was illegal among other things) pretty much made it clear that people in theater always knew.
I admit I am kind of horrified by this whole Thomas/Jimmy storyline.

Genevieve wrote:I admit I am kind of horrified by this whole Thomas/Jimmy storyline.

It's so awful that I can barely watch it. It's just terrible on every single level.

Thomas may be an ass, but come on. COME ON.

It was physically uncomfortable for me to watch.

Yeah, that was awful to watch. And seriously harsh of O'Brien to set him up.

I have no flippin' clue why Thomas would listen to O'Brien. I get that he's lonely and angry, but his naturally cynical and suspicious nature makes this entire plot thread ridiculous. It's just out of character. Thomas has always been about the self-preservation (getting his hand shot up, for instance), and there's no way that he would risk prison over something a woman who is now his enemy says.

I think he listens to her precisely because he is so lonely - no family, no friends, but this lady USED to be his friend. I think he just wants to believe her, which makes it even worse.

Yeah, the fact that Thomas DID believe what O'Brien was telling him was about the most moving part of that storyline to me. I think the actor is good enough to sell that Thomas thought he had a chance; seeing him be relatively happy (for Thomas) and flirty and then broken was so...pathetic.

Pretty much. It was the same reason I found his reaction Sybil's death believable and so sad. Thomas is not really a good person but something made him that way. This is not going to help.

I think Carson may come around. I'm hoping Carson comes around.

Genevieve, I don't disagree that Fellowes writes stereotypical characters, but I gotta say, I thought the Thomas storyline was effective and heartbreaking. I don't think he was predatory at all for making a move on something that he thought he was real given what O'Brien had said. He debated with himself for so long, and it was so heartbreaking for him to see not get what he had so hoped for. I hope he gets of happiness, which is definitely a turnaround for his character given all the mean things he's done to others.

I think with Thomas it's a mixture of the actor being good enough to give him layers, Fellowes actually seeming to recognize that and somewhat write for that and the problems inherent in the set-up of the character. They made the working-class gay character into a cartoon villain in the first season. But IMO even then there were explanations for his behaviour. His very existence is against the law. I can see how that would lead to resentment, anger and the belief that he has to be ruthless to survive. Not everyone has Bates' martyr complex.

And if they wanted to keep Thomas around the only solution was to make him more complex. Because long-term the implications of the "resident evil" stuff from the first season would have been too offensive IMO. I do find it realistic that the people around him would react in prejudiced and nasty ways given the historical context. Nothing is worse than "magically enlightened" heroes who are somehow much wiser than the oppressive society around them. I can see people like Sybil or Anna not reacting in a negative way, given what we've seen of their characters, but everybody else? I don't think that their first reaction would be understanding, no matter how "good" as people they may be in other ways.

Did I really see Lord Grantham suggest they invest Downton money in an actual literal Ponzi scheme?

Yes he did. He is such a fail.

Decca wrote:Did I really see Lord Grantham suggest they invest Downton money in an actual literal Ponzi scheme?

I laughed so much at this. Robert doesn't have a good handle on smart investment or management of any kind of money! lol

And I loved how Violet was able to maneuver to learn what she wanted to learn about Rose's escapades, and got her punished. That was devious but in a funny way.

There's a 2 hour Christmas Special, but as far as I can tell, season 4 has yet to be confirmed. To be honest, I have little desire to see Fellowes do the rise of Hitler/ Second World War, so if that is the end, I'll take it. I mean I'll watch if there is Downton in the 1930s, but I won't be happy about it...

I heard there would be a Season 4, but it will be the last season.

I am blanking on what Mary's surgery might have been. Thoughts?

Some sort of uterine abnormality, I imagine--maybe a septate uterus.