Downton Abbey (British version)

Oh it is so hard for me not to burst and be like THIS HAPPENS THEN THIS, but I WILL NOT.

And yes, Edith struck first, and Mary retaliated, which is why shes always been more vile to me, though I did soften on her quite a bit by the end of the second season just because of how generally sad she is.

But Mary didn't know that Edith wrote that letter, did she? In fact, she still doesn't know. That's why I think Mary is as bad as Edith.

Mary knew Edith wrote the letter ... Evelyn Napier told her while she was in London (in maybe the last, or second last episode of season 1? I watched them all at once over the weekend and they've kind of blurred together). That's why she sabotaged Edith's relationship with Sir Anthony.

But Mary didn't know that Edith wrote that letter, did she? In fact, she still doesn't know. That's why I think Mary is as bad as Edith.

Mary does know. The Turkish diplomat's British friend came to see her when she was in London visiting her aunt, and told her that he'd learned that the Turkish ambassador had received a letter from Edith.

ETA: Jinx, MLIS! You're better at remembering names than I am, too.

I haven't watched season 1 since it aired in the US so I might not have all the details right, but I believe Edith's original motivation for her Mary hate was not just the pretty/heiress thing but also that she had a thing for their cousin/Mary's fiancee who died on the Titanic. And when he died, Mary was kind of all "oh well!" about it and was generally incredibly callous about people (relatives!) dying, while Edith actually cared. I vaguely remember Edith flinging bitter words at Mary over it. I get why people don't like Edith, as she does nothing but horrible and/or stupid things all the time and even in sympathetic situations finds a way to make you annoyed with her, but I really don't mind her. Mary, though, she just grates on me.

This episode was making me think how odd it is that Mary and Carson have such a father-daughter relationship, when it's not like her own father is withholding or cold. I bet Lord Grantham is head and shoulders above the other peers in his fatherhood skills. I guess Carson's unqualified adoration is more Mary's speed, but Mary's affection for him is one of her few redeeming qualities for me.

I am unspoiled, but every time William loudly proclaimed how much he wanted to be in the war, I could almost see the anvil of tragic death growing larger over his head. I almost don't want to watch the rest of the season because I dread it so much. Look at Anna, William, and don't say what will make you happy out loud! This show is like the monkey's paw with how it twists your greatest desires into something awful for you. The male heir, Bates' inheritance letting him get a divorce and marry Anna, everything just falls apart as soon as you say how happy you are.

I find Mary a confusing character ... am I supposed to like her? Root for her? Feel sorry for her? Hate her? She is the one character whose motivations and goals are not clear. With nearly all of the other characters I could tell you what they want, what would make them happy, why they act they way they do. But with Mary ... what would make her happy? What motivates her? I really have no idea. She says and does unpleasant and unkind things, and as Jo March would say she goes around throwing away perfectly good marriage proposals, but I don't think we're supposed to see her as the villain. Are we supposed to feel sorry for her because of the whole "as a woman you can't inherit, you're only good for marrying and producing an heir of your own" thing? Because I get the frustration of that, but it can't be a person's sole motivation. Are we supposed to root for her? Because she's not likeable enough for that.

I do like the actress very much (and ohmigod her costumes! so pretty!), but I don't understand the character, or how the show wants me to feel about her.

I also find the timeline thing very frustrating. They just skip over months at a time, and yet the conversations and plotlines pick up exactly as if five minutes have passed, instead of five months. It's like they're all in suspended animation for months at a time. I realize part of that is just the soap opera-ness of it all, but it's jarring at times for the characters to be having the same conversation as in the last episode, and then reference the fact that it's a year later.

All that said, I've only just discovered the show, watched the entire first season over the last week, and am addicted. I am spoiled for the coming season, but I'm looking forward to watching it all unfold.

Lord Grantham IS a great dad, isn't he? He's far and away my favorite character.

Lord Grantham IS a great dad, isn't he? He's far and away my favorite character.

His relationship with his wife is pretty great, too, and he seems to get along ok with his imperious mother. And I love that he's always got his sweet doggie with him. I felt badly for him when the general told him he'd been brought into their unit so he could be a charming dinner guest, not a soldier on the front lines.

I loved Mrs. Hughes's eavesdropping on Bates and his wife, then telling Carson about it. Carson's all, "If I were a gentleman, I wouldn't listen to information received in such an underhanded manner," and then, "I'm not a gentleman, so let's hear it!"

I am unspoiled, but every time William loudly proclaimed how much he wanted to be in the war, I could almost see the anvil of tragic death growing larger over his head.

There were quite a few anvilicious scenes in this episode. Starting with the soldier in the trenches who kept going on and on and on about how, if a bullet's got your name on it, there's nothing you can do about it, and then *blam* right in the helmet. I was cringing waiting for it to happen, because anyone who's ever seen any war movie, ever, knew it would, the only question was about how gory the scene would be. (And, hint to movie soldiers: Never tell your buddies about your wonderful plans for after the war. You'll thank me for this.)

Thanks for the clarification on the farmer, everyone. I don't know how I missed that he was married.

I go back and forth on Mary, but I think I mostly like her. Though she can be maddening. I love (LOVE!) her clothes. I also really like Sybil, and I'm glad she has something to do. And yeah, poor William is a goner. I hope Daisy keeps her silly trap shut until after he leaves.

Mary is my favorite character and has been since about halfway through the first season. I do think most of her issues come from being a woman at a time when you could almost but not quite have more. It really isn't helped by her inability to inherit, especially when Robert really takes to Matthew as a son. Also I sympathise with her about the marriage proposal. She didn't say yes because she wanted to tell him about Pamuk and the baby was just a side issue. In the end I think I am as big a Mary fan as Carson and will defend her forever.

I like Edith a lot as well, but mostly for things that happen in this season so I won't go into it.

Downton Abbey is a show where I like all the characters (yes even Thomas) because they are so interesting and multifaceted to me.

Except for Daisy. Daisy can GTFO.

There's a really telling moment when Pamuk is in Mary's room, coming on to her. Mary seems genuinely freaked out, and says, "You and my family have something in common. You believe me to be much more of a rebel than I really am." To me, that sort of sums her up. Who knows how she got this way, but for some reason, she feels she has to be really tough and caustic. But it's the moments where that facade slips that really endear her to me. I love her.

[Also, watching that scene again, do you feel like what Pamuk did was date rape? I mean, she says she will scream or ring the bell and he uses threats to prevent her from doing that. She doesn't seem comfortable being there at any time we see.]

So far, I'm about 95% hate for Edith, but I'm willing to stay open to her this season. Episode one was not a good start, however.

I don't think it was date rape. I think she wanted to be there, despite initially being taken by surprise. I think she said that because it was expected of a lady of her station.

Aw, crap. I watched the Season Two opener last night, even though I've not seen any of Season One, and now I must see all the episodes I missed like right now. *sigh* I'm not signed up with Netflix. Are the first season eps on Hulu or somewhere else online?

I agree, she was unsure about what to do or whether she could say yes and the only acceptable thing for her to do would be to call for help. Momentary "I don't know what to do in this situation" panic.

When I watched the very first episode, I didn't care for Mary. She was just so cold, especially in her reaction to the Titanic news. But she has grown on me immensely--I do love her sarcastic exterior, and that she seems to cover up much of her emotion with witty one-liners. The apple does not fall far from the Dowager Countess. She also gets the best clothes (this sounds like something Edith would say). That coat she was wearing when she sees Matthew off at the train station needs to be mine posthaste.

One of my favorite parts of the first season is how all the characters roll around the name "Mr. Pamuk." No one ever simply states his name. Especially Mary. There's that one episode (one of the later ones) where she asks her mother "Do you mean MR. PAMUK? MY LOVER?" and it is so damn fantastic.

SO MUCH happened in this first episode! I can't believe Mr. Farmer guy and Edith! And Thomas has feelings! Who knew? Ugh, and as soon as Anna and Mistah Behhhts were all "We could buy a little hotel!" I knew that dream was dead. Do not speak your hopes and dreams, people, for they will quickly be dashed! Like all of you, I am nervously anticipating that anvil falling on poor William's head.

Oh, Mr. Carson with his "Luckily, I am not a gentleman." I heart Carson and want one of my own.

Aw, crap. I watched the Season Two opener last night, even though I've not seen any of Season One, and now I must see all the episodes I missed like right now. *sigh* I'm not signed up with Netflix. Are the first season eps on Hulu or somewhere else online?

PBS.org has the first season streaming; you'll only see 4 episodes listed, but that's the complete series (even though Netflix has it broken into 7 or 8).

maxell131313 wrote:Aw, crap. I watched the Season Two opener last night, even though I've not seen any of Season One, and now I must see all the episodes I missed like right now. *sigh* I'm not signed up with Netflix. Are the first season eps on Hulu or somewhere else online?

It looks like all the episodes are on the PBS web site.

I hear what you guys are saying about Mary really wanting to do it with Pamuk, but feeling like it was wrong. It's just that she never looks anything but scared to me in that scene.

I don't know. To me she seemed pretty into it. Then he died.

I think she looked nervous during the deed, which makes sense, as I imagine it was very possibly her first time, the way she was acting, but not scared. I think if she was genuinely scared, we would have dealt with the aftermath of that, or she would have rung the bell or shouted.

I hear what you guys are saying about Mary really wanting to do it with Pamuk, but feeling like it was wrong. It's just that she never looks anything but scared to me in that scene.

I agree that to me, she mostly looked scared. Maybe towards the end of the scene she transitioned into uncomfortable. And then curious. She had a chance to say that Pamuk forced himself on her, and she didn't take it. She was honest about it even though no one would have ever been able to prove her a liar, so I just kind of took that to mean that she ultimately did want to do it.

Someone in the Celebrity Twitter thread led me to Patton Oswalt's Downton Abbey Twitter geek-outs, which led me to this. It's probably already been posted here, but I didn't dare click on this thread before Sunday night for fear of spoilers.

Kiran wrote:Downton Abbey is a show where I like all the characters (yes even Thomas) because they are so interesting and multifaceted to me.

Except for Daisy. Daisy can GTFO.

That's how I feel about it, and I don't even mind Daisy. I liked in season 1 how she, of all people, was the most fiercely loyal to Mrs. Padmore when she thought her job was being threatened by the Crawley's rental cook. But she does look like she's about 13 or 14.

Carson and Hughes are both awesome, as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you so much for that. It has enriched my life in ways you will never know.

I hear what you guys are saying about Mary really wanting to do it with Pamuk, but feeling like it was wrong. It's just that she never looks anything but scared to me in that scene.

Just so you know, you'll get an answer at some point in season 2. Don't want to say more.

I love "A Very Carson Christmas". :)

And yes, Edith struck first, and Mary retaliated, which is why shes always been more vile to me

I haven't seen anything of the second season (my TiVo has never felt farther away from me and I am only 750 miles), but to me she is not only more vile for striking first she is more vile for striking harder. Mary told a suitor that Edith found him boring and an unwanted suitor, which appeared to ruin one possible match. On the other hand with a second hand report she sent a letter to grieving strangers that had the potential to ruin Mary's reputation in "appropriate" society and worst case scenario tarnish the entire family with mucking the waters of a well-connected foreign nationals death. The fact that was the path she chose indicated to me she was a moron and that Mary was almost kind in not ratting Edith out to her mother.

Okay wow, I had completely forgotten that Mary had been told about the letter. That totally changes my opinion, dang. Thank you all for setting me straight!!

I also don't think Mary was date-raped, mostly because she had the opportunity to say that's what it was (as Gillian pointed out) and didn't. Also, did they actually have intercourse? Mr. Pamuk said "You can still be a virgin for your husband on your wedding night" which makes me think they just got up to other shenanigans. Not that it changes THE SHAME OF IT ALL but still. (I also love the "MR PAMUK, MY LOVER" comments from Mary.)

Which Downton Abbey character are you? I'm Anna, but only because my recent exhaustion with politics affected my answers. I'm pretty sure otherwise I'd be Sybil. Not that I mind, Anna rocks!